NCN Chat 22 Oct 95
Meeting Basic Needs

<ffunch> What are basic needs?

<cbwillis> is that the current issue?

<cbwillis> physical needs first

<cbwillis> even tho spirit is more fundamental

<Kirby> People are not willing to delay gratification of even exotic needs
+until everyone has basic needs met. A given.

<ffunch> What are minimum basic physical needs?

<Bobster> current? Don't know. probably.

<ffunch> Yes, we can't expect everybody to make do until everybody's needs are met

<cbwillis> good nutrition, health, clothes/cover/warmth, shelter, safety

<Bobster> Also, considers NEEDS vs. needs

<ffunch> ?

<Kirby> Economics displaces basic need food crops for roses bound for florist
+freezers in first world

<ffunch> Maybe another kind of economics would value basic needs differently

<Kirby> Create the need to see the world improve as one of those exotic
+'consumer needs'

<Bobster> NEEDS 
<--> physical survival, needs
<-->comfort and gratification

<ffunch> Having something worthwhile to do

<cbwillis> who gets to define improvement?

<Kirby> I.E. we want to see everyone getting basic needs met on TV, in the
+movies

<ffunch> Being alive and having a role in the game of life

<Kirby> Basic: not starving or seeing kids starve -- access to basic medical
+care

<Bobster> Econ 101 says, "Desires are unlimited, resources are limited"

<Kirby> Sanitary water supply, not walking 10 miles for fuel for cooking

<ffunch> Would basic needs have to be centrally supplied?

<cbwillis> Econ 101 is a scarcity game

<Kirby> We don't rally to take care of basic needs because Econ 101 says we'll
+fail

<cbwillis> water, sewer and some utilities preferrably, tho you could use
+solar

<ffunch> Basic needs might be part of a community arrangement, like a family, rather
+than a master plan

<cbwillis> some program!

<Kirby> So we take care of No.1, working on exotic needs, letting others fend
+for themselves

<cbwillis> K, that's exactly what I do

<cbwillis> like the next program or book I'm going to buy

<Kirby> Until we have consumer demand for taking care of basic needs as a #1
+rated TV series, forget it

<cbwillis> it would have to be PBS

<Kirby> Right now, TKOBN is left to religious charity shows, backchannel cable
+stuff, mostly guilt-driven

<cbwillis> no one would sponsor it

<ffunch> It has to provide enjoyment, excitement and pleasure to take care of basic
+needs

<Bobster> K: Not very sexy for today's audiences...

<cbwillis> would be a good theme for a sesame street tho

<Kirby> Corporate sponsorship would jump at the chance if could scrub image,
+make 'clean' again

<Kirby> If solutions involved glitzy, high tech approaches, lots of computers,
+MIT, Harvard, we'd get ratings

<Bobster> But consider the mode of "Gorillas in the mist." A topic people
+wouldn't normally consider, but presented ina compelling way.

<ffunch> Maybe it would need to be "Making the world work" rathr than taking care of
+those who don't themselves

<cbwillis> "get back to basics with the latest technology"

<Kirby> Plus chance for ordinary folks to star, kind of soap-style high tech
+peace corps

<ffunch> Reframe the subject away from charity and welfare

<ffunch> Put in systems that bust scarcities

<ffunch> Scarcity is the enemy

<cbwillis> people feeling that scarcity is the only game in town

<Kirby> The perception of scarcity where there is none: our own living
+standards abyssmal because we're so clueless

<ffunch> What is those who created artificial scarcities were regarded as criminals
+..

<cbwillis> these kinds of programs would be good as an occasional short on 60
+minutes or primetime

<Kirby> Making world work would involve turning a critical eye on our own
+'high living standards' questioning their highness

<cbwillis> We create our own clues!

<Bobster> cb: Yes, when I talk about "beyond scarcity" ideas, people look at
+me kinda funny. I have to have a "reasonable" flow model to explain this to
+people. I'm still missing that...

<cbwillis> as in "get" a clue

<cbwillis> I don't want to question high standards of living

<Kirby> Flow model: Sun as Sponsor. Earth as funded enterprise (funded by
+solar sponsor).

<cbwillis> I think we ought to start from some (arbitrary) highest common
+denominator

<ffunch> I don't see any problem in hight standards of living

<cbwillis> I think we should encourage people to set their own high standard!

<ffunch> I think the general problem is too narrow a view, not realizing we are all
+part of the same system

<Kirby> I question whether your standards are high enough: having folks starve
+around you on the planet is pretty crummy if you ask me

<ffunch> Right

<cbwillis> it is a bummer

<ffunch> We are too used to having our house in a mess and the guests starving

<Kirby> Our living standard sucks. Place to start: no, we deserve and will
+work for a better world (including for No.1)

<ffunch> Expand our space to include the whole planet

<cbwillis> I think we should validate all beings on the planet as capable
+spirits

<ffunch> We're all guests in each other's house

<cbwillis> ask them what they want

<cbwillis> what is their dream, their vision

<cbwillis> what support do they need to achieve it

<ffunch> There is a room for everybody

<cbwillis> I have a friend who is a diversity trainer...

<Bobster> Basic needs then? How do we get people food, shelter, security,
+hope?

<cbwillis> who goes into SF schools, tough schools with racial problems...

<Kirby> Many say: higher living standards = lower birth rate. Only way to
+ethically control population is to quickly advance living standards.

<ffunch> Set up systems that provide needs without a scarcity mechanism

<cbwillis> and he asks them about their dreams, and what support would they
+like to achieve them

<cbwillis> this is the first time anyone has asked them those questions.

<cbwillis> they really have to think about it

<cbwillis> but they LIGHT UP, they start WAKING UP

<ffunch> Yes, find out what people really want

<cbwillis> they get off the racial game

<cbwillis> it just goes by the wayside

<ffunch> Empowers people to be asked what they really want

<ffunch> Everybody is important

<Kirby> Anthropology FAQ sci.anthropology: "How many races of human?" Answer
+"One"

<cbwillis> YES!  because nobody cared enough, or thought it couldnt happen
+anyway

<ffunch> Anybody has something valuable to add to the world

<cbwillis> we have got to get beyond apathy, bootstrap out of apathy as a
+group

<ffunch> We gotta get over the idea that everybody else don't count

<cbwillis> we've go to get over the idea that we don't count

<ffunch> YEs, it is WE, and not THEM and US

<ffunch> WE have a problem is some of us are hungry

<Kirby> Another tack: "could have done it by now" model: a realistic vision of
+how we could have achieved great success by 1995, had we paid attention
+(futurism in the subjunctive tense)

<Bobster> cb: I just kinda played out your friends scenario in my mind. I
+think the first answers would be, "a new lexus", "$10 m" etc., but thne
+moving onto, once those things are acknowledged, "world peace", "a clean
+env." etc.

<cbwillis> great!

<cbwillis> once the process begins, it sparks other ideas too

<cbwillis> then the person gets more and more discerning about what they would
+REALLY want

<cbwillis> a lot of conditioned ideas blow off

<ffunch> People need to start realizzing that they CAN get what they want

<Kirby> Seems place to begin is: could we satisfy basic (AND exotic) needs of
+humanity, sustainably, in principle, or is it hopeless to even contemplate
+the prospect

<cbwillis> and it's natural

<ffunch> What people really want are usually values, feelings, not physically stuff.
+But they might not realize it at first.

<ffunch> It isn't hopeless

<cbwillis> k, that is the whole nut, the ideal juxtaposed to the apathy

<cbwillis> keeps humanity on a constant indecision, wears them out

<Bobster> People are conditioned to the limited pie scenario. "What someone
+else gets comes at my expense"

<cbwillis> insanity really

<ffunch> Overall, we COULD all get pretty much what we want.

<ffunch> It is a lie that there is a scarcity of basic necessities

<Kirby> I'd like to see housing with integrated circuits, higher tech, more
+like a Boeing or submarine, so can wire with latest multimedia: houses now
+can't put in file server/LAN without ripping the walls apart, drilling,
+caulking -- oh so primitive.

<cbwillis> yes, it's only the cultural programming and scarcity consciousness
+that holds us back

<ffunch> What if we go for a high common denominator, everybody having high-level
+equipment

<cbwillis> yes

<Kirby> Spent time in Royal Kingdom of Bhutan. What do Bhutanese want? LANs,
+digital TV, same as us. AND to preserve their cultural heritage (Tibetan).
+Bhutan should be a source of high quality multimedia; as would be much of the
+world, if properly wired.

<ffunch> A high standard of living is self-reinforcing to some degree

<cbwillis> any high common denominator is based on a spiritual model, the
+community of spirit

<cbwillis> spirit is abundant, opulent, worlds without end

<cbwillis> infinitely rich

<ffunch> What if we go for ALL feeling productive and fulfilled

<Kirby> Lucky for us, high living standards mean more ephemeral technologies:
+takes less to provide bandwidth to the world than a pickup truck

<ffunch> There is no scarcity of good feelings, in that it doesn't take physical raw
+materials to produce them.

<cbwillis> f, good mock up

<ffunch> High enough tech takes less materials

<cbwillis> we as spirit generate good feelings

<ffunch> Spiritual tech takes no materials

<Kirby> I think basic human problem is: lack of coordination. Kind of like
+neurons not developed to where precise motor movement is possible; but on the
+global level. Our global neuron system is either in its infancy...

<Bobster> An interesting opportunity is the net. The net is to computers as
+the nervous system is to the synapse. It's power is going to make the "10's
+of millions of transistors on a single chip" look anemic!

<cbwillis> and teaching others to have and do is a spiritual communication,
+sharing

<ffunch> High enough level of networking might solve it in itself

<Kirby> Or has reached adulthood and is insufficient, in which case we're
+doomed (because just to uncoordinated to survive)

<cbwillis> gives a new meaing to the term "high level networking"!

<ffunch> High tech means less physical strain on the environment

<cbwillis> ??

<ffunch> More ephemeralized tech, or spiritual tech, means less resource use.

<cbwillis> you had to build the high tech, which was a physical strain
* Bobster 's feed is garbled....

<cbwillis> non-physical tech

<ffunch> The more effective the tech, the less materials would have to be used.

<Kirby> Given our capability to succeed, and inability to get it together, I
+call this the "Duh Era" -- kind like the Dark Ages, where we all sat around
+and scratched our heads and said 'duh' a lot.

<cbwillis> there's a lot to be said for pure postulate or light intentionality

<ffunch> Better networking could allow us to better understand what is really going
+on.
* Bobster will be back. Going to reboot IRC

<cbwillis> if only for setting the standard or expectation

<ffunch> Simply communicating and intending things to work has quite some leverage

<cbwillis> creating a context
*** Signoff: Bobster (EOF From client)

<cbwillis> creating the space of possibilities

<ffunch> Setting the stage and putting the needed elements together
*** Bobster (bobhilt@tia1.eskimo.com) has joined channel #ncn

<ffunch> Establishing hope

<cbwillis> right now few people are talking in these terms

<ffunch> more are as we speak

<ffunch> The Internet has established hope in many areas

<Bobster> f: I just got a piece of your "DUH era" comment. Sounds interesting.
+Can you give me that again?

<cbwillis> even more libraries are getting internet

<cbwillis> for patrons

<cbwillis> but we need to always maintain low tech ways to get fundamentals
+across

<Kirby> Bob: that was Kirby on "the Duh Era" -- just that we're too
+uncoordinated to act in our own best interests right now, so in retrospect
+our kids will think we were pretty dumb (I hope)

<cbwillis> those who are scraping for food today aren't on internet

<cbwillis> they may not even be literate

<ffunch> If we can use networking and computers to give us a better picture of the
+world, we can be more empowered, take better decisions.

<Bobster> Bandwidth=Power. Given sufficient bandwidth, you could get a very
+good workstation for a few hundred $

<ffunch> Right now the Internet is somewhat confusing and incoherent, what if it
+could provide more clear pictures to us, more clear mind-maps, more knowledge
+one can act on instantly.

<Bobster> How about lo-tech too? Solar ovens for $50 could save people from
+chopping down trees firewood and making deserts of their environment...

<cbwillis> communication from parents to children, from teachers to children,
+from friend to friend is the gold standard

<Kirby> Coordination on a large scale is/has been fostered via media, which
+cue the cast on 'how to act' (how to be cool, how to be hip, how to be 'with
+it')

<cbwillis> whatever medium that is on

<ffunch> There are solutions to most things, if the people who need them could just
+be linked up with them, and understand them.
* Kirby goes to satisfy exotic need: coffee from Columbia (where Juan Valdez
+works for $1/day)

<ffunch> Coordination and clarity of information is key

<cbwillis> to develop an attitude and skills in resourcefulness in childhood
*** Kirby has left channel #ncn

<cbwillis> then they can get the information
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<cbwillis> k, how can you live with yourself?
* Kirby reboots IRC to solve interface glitch

<Bobster> F: yes. I guess the linking of workable solutions is the job
+fulfilled by the net, ideally.

<ffunch> There is so much information that the knowledge of useful solutions gets
+drowned out

<cbwillis> zeroing in, narrowing focus, ability to select quality are learned
+skills

<cbwillis> it doesn't matter how much noise is out there, as long as you can
+quickly zero in

<ffunch> How do we teach people to understand and discern, rather than just being
+confused and saying "Duh".

<ffunch> Evaluation of what is important is necessary

<cbwillis> yes, focus on essentials and why they are essential

<Bobster> In the 50's, space race etc., people were interested in solutions
+(perhaps from a much different motivation), whereas today, we see fear about
+various things...

<cbwillis> even so, I will say "duh" whenever I'm confused...

<ffunch> We still need solutions

<ffunch> Duh

<Kirby> I think seeing oneself as saying 'duh' (vs being a keen eyed realist
+looking after #1) would be an advance: see ourselves from the future, in ways
+that hurt pride (big change motivator is hurt pride).

<ffunch> Duh can lead to clarifying that which one feels Duh about

<ffunch> It is a stop forward to recognizing the Duh

<cbwillis> there should be no shame in duh, providing you are looking for
+solutions

<ffunch> step forward, I mean

<ffunch> right

<cbwillis> it's proactive ignorance that's the problem, willful ignorance

<ffunch> We don't have to pretend we know when we really don't

<Kirby> New bestseller: The Duh Factor

<cbwillis> whew!

<cbwillis> with most things that happen today, it's either 
<duh!> or 
<whew!>

<ffunch> I guess many people are realizing that they don't really have all the
+answers

<cbwillis> ROFL

<Bobster> I'm still a bit lost as to what you mean by Duh. "I don't know?", or
+"That was obvious, why didn't I see it?"

<cbwillis> or can't have ALL the answers

<Kirby> A feeling that yougner generations are getting less interested in
+political boundaries would be helpful: they say 1/3rd of USA kids can't find
+USA on a map. I say 'great!'

<cbwillis> b, duh = confused or don't kow

<cbwillis> know

<cbwillis> k, are you serious

<ffunch> Regarding the world as an unfolding mystery that we don't already know
+everything about, is a good thing, I'd say.

<Bobster> K: I say, "bad news" because it's not borne from enlightenment, but
+of general, overall ignorance spanning many topics.

<Kirby> Sorry about the ambiguity of 'duh' -- its like when an onlooker is
+watching me puzzle over a puzzle and the answer is obvious to him, but not to
+me.

<cbwillis> bad geography = world as mystery ?  you gotta be kidding

<cbwillis> what about orientation in time and space

<ffunch> Mystery doesn't have to be about geography. I meant it is useful if we keep
+an open mind about the future, about where things are going.

<cbwillis> right

<Kirby> I'm saying: not seeing political delineation "USA" or "Bosnia" or
+"Serbia" or "Palestine" on a world map is a step in the right direction:
+seeing little dots light up showing Exxon, DuPont, Dow is the next missing
+piece

<ffunch> A clear picture of the present, but an open mind about the future.

<Kirby> Lets show data that's relevant, instead of fighting about where you
+need to show your passport

<Bobster> K: OK.

<cbwillis> relevant data differs from one person to the next

<ffunch> Provide better interface to the current world, but shatter preconceived
+ideas about how the future HAS to be arrived at.

<cbwillis> the san jose mercury news did a thing about 2 years ago where they
+asked people to draw the bay area, their view, with key places they use to
+orient by, favorite places...

<Kirby> Politicos will keep using political maps for the foreseeable future,
+but would be nice to have that alternative perspective: see kids planning,
+pouring over global 'game board' with no nations in sight

<cbwillis> fascinating maps

<cbwillis> what people notice and think is important

<cbwillis> this was a picture of their local world

<Bobster> K & CB, something I mentioned earlier to F.: Authors of JAVA are
+encouraging authors of SimCity2000 to re-write in JAVA so real-world
+databases could be incorporated over the net!

<ffunch> Maybe we need to get people's individual maps more out in the open. Even if
+they aren't "correct".

<Kirby> That's an interesting idea, things along those lines. (Re:
+Javanization of GIS)

<ffunch> Geosphere, World Visualizer, we need more of that.

<cbwillis> definitely. 

<cbwillis> the maps drawing is a fun project to do in a group, draw individual
+maps then show and tell

<cbwillis> or just show and let people discover for themselves

<Kirby> Yeah, those 'The World according to Reagan' maps were kinda fun:
+similar to those maps of the human body as distorted by brain-percent devoted
+to: huge hands, tiny arms

<ffunch> We need to provide useful information about the world, and allow people to
+make their own mind-maps of what that means.

<cbwillis> mind-maps is the right word

<Kirby> And cover of New Yorker showing: World as seen from New York (very
+NYC-centric, as you can imagine)

<cbwillis> but if you leave the eval totally to the person, many won't make
+the connections

<ffunch> Let people draw their own conclusions, but give them useful information
+first.

<Bobster> K: What was RBF's term for this real-time database/gis concept?

<cbwillis> teachers and writers need to talk about importances but students
+need to be given permission to consider the ideas and generate their own

<ffunch> Well, some opinion leaders might tell others what THEY see.

<cbwillis> freedom of speech

<ffunch> There should be no one RIGHT way of looking at it.

<cbwillis> any assertion is someone's viewpoint, and it's an invitation to
+others to LOOK

<Kirby> Do we dare do high-powered propaganda, openly biased, and very
+strongly, in a particular direction, or is the only ethical propaganda
+supposed to appear 'open, all-sided, non-judgemental' etc.?

<Bobster> ff: true, but FACTS are important!

<ffunch> Should be more clear that everybody's presenting their own maps.

<ffunch> Facts are important, but very often opinions are presented as facts.

<Bobster> Opinions based on facts will vary, but that does not change the
+underlying data

<ffunch> Like, scientists often present their findings as facts, when really they are
+their best guesses at the moment.

<Kirby> Like, I thought 'Atomic Cafe' was 'hard hitting' and well done, and
+certainly put a powerful spin on what the world was like

<cbwillis> or slanted in the direction of a favored hypothesis or intuition

<cbwillis> Atomic Cafe?

<ffunch> It should be clear that even an Authority is only giving his best guess
+about what things mean.

<Bobster> Well, slanted propaganda is really another form of "big lie". Can
+you promote truth via big lie?

<ffunch> Facts are discrete pieces of observed information. What they mean is a
+subjective matter.

<cbwillis> yes, and that expert opinion should be seriously considered, but
+not all powerful

<Kirby> I imagine OmniMax 70mm films that really hit hard, showing the world
+in a way that both devestates and offers possibility for success. Kind of a
+training film (like the Army did), and you may have to be enrolled in a
+program to access (no general admit)

<cbwillis> even the act of observation changes the fact(s)

<Bobster> ff: yes, but that is still interpretation. We can present raw data
+to people and let them draw their own conclusions, or draw them by proxy from
+people they decide to trust.

<ffunch> It is fine to have opinion leaders, but it should be noticed that they just
+give their opinions, even if they are often right.

<cbwillis> you can't get the experimenter out of the experiment

<ffunch> Even raw data still is biased. Somebody decided what data to show, and how
+to measure it.

<Kirby> The word 'slant' connotes 'lie' I agree. But 'strong bias' can be a
+'course correction' if we take it that current mass media is biased some
+other way, even in its attempts to appear 'objective'

<ffunch> We can work on having different sources of raw data, and making clear how it
+was collected, and that it might not be complete.

<Bobster> Ok, like over-steering until the ship gets back moving back in the
+right direction, then easing off?

<cbwillis> as in conflicting conclusions of different scientific studies

<ffunch> A bias is OK, if there is some kind of "declaration of content" to go with
+it. OK with a subjective map if we know it is a subjective map.

<Kirby> The present mindset was created using powerful propaganda techniques,
+including generations exposed to war films, demonization of the enemy. Many
+alive experienced Nazi flicks.

<Bobster> hmmm. What was the topic again? Nice jumping off place, the "topic"
+but the conversation takes on a life of its own.

<ffunch> Everything anybody says is somewhat slanted and incomplete. None of us are a
+complete authority of what is.

<cbwillis> students need to know there may be a degree of subjectivity in any
+assertion

<ffunch> How do we perceive basic needs?

<cbwillis> but some people get very close, excellent track record

<Kirby> My point is: getting to where we're ready to face the job of providing
+basics to all might require media events with high 'shock value' that really
+have a lasting impact.

<ffunch> Giving people information about where they can fulfill their basic needs.

<ffunch> Clear information, showing irrefutably what is going on, what the current
+scene is.

<cbwillis> and how they they fulfill them, options, get them thinking in terms
+of generating options

<cbwillis> A reality check, but not in a way that limits their thinking or
+their future

<Bobster> K: Yes, but then the process from there must move forward. Seeing
+distended stomachs in commercials has generally lost its shock potential...

<ffunch> The data is there, solutions are probably there. We just need to get things
+linked up more. Communicate the big picture more.
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<cbwillis> suggestion that the future does not need to be like the past

<ffunch> Empowering the individual. Allowing individual to understand and to choose.

<ffunch> The future is totally new

<cbwillis> the human spirit always offers hope

<cbwillis> or should I say the spirit within humanity?

<ffunch> The overall scarcity picture is a lie, I think. So, by communicating and
+networking what is actually there, it will change.

<cbwillis> that spirit is infinitely creative

<ffunch> The future is what we are creating right now.

<ffunch> Creativity is our most important resources. And it is unlimited.

<ffunch> If our economic system was based on creativity there would be enough for
+everybody.

<Kirby> High tech puzzle pieces. Chance for corporations to advertise in
+'image-scubbing' context. De-emphasis of politics/boundaries. Media projects
+aimed at showing current situation in new light.

<cbwillis> Total abundance (with good stewardship) is our spiritual birthright

<ffunch> Honesty might get a new PR value.

<ffunch> Doing something for Everybody might get a marketing value.

<Kirby> ('image-scrubbing')... challenging Econ 101 with General Systems
+Theory (an alternative discipline within which to discuss resource/desire
+issues)

<cbwillis> Honesty has huge PR value, if it is indeed honest

<ffunch> Solving permanent problems permanently might have PR value.

<cbwillis> how could you solve a *permanent* problem permanently?

<ffunch> I think more people will become more able to discern true honesty, and to
+expose fake honesty.

<cbwillis> maybe there are no permanent problems

<Kirby> PR value: having your logo on your artifact on a TV show where living
+standards are clearly being improved. GE: we bring good things to life (works
+better when logo isn't on a MIRV)

<cbwillis> all problems are arbitrary, not necessary?

<ffunch> Eh, a long-lasting problem might be found to be solvable, permanently.

<cbwillis> yes, discerning and exposing fake honesty, by their fruits shall
+they be known

<ffunch> There ARE no permenent problems. Anything can be changed.

<Kirby> Trend towards product placement in films: insidious, but could be used
+for the better?

<ffunch> Movies will tend to show what people want. So, if from the grassroots we
+change what WE want, it will follow along.

<Kirby> I don't advocate starry eyed too much either. We'll all be dead before
+some of the major successes we want to see happen (if they happen) and that's
+just the way it goes.

<cbwillis> who knows, maybe you'll be back to see it, or stand witness from
+whereever you are

<ffunch> I think things could change really quickly, if they just got going in the
+right way.

<Kirby> Movies reflect collective unconscious in ways good scriptwriters
+fathom, but grassroots may rarely be very articulate about (or embarrassed to
+say)

<cbwillis> correct orientation of the rocket

<ffunch> A self-reinforcing thing like the Internet spreads really quickly. I think
+we'll see more stuff like that.

<cbwillis> ability to search on keywords on the www is very hot, very
+effective

<cbwillis> allows you to zero in, using technology after intention

<ffunch> Leverage. A seemingly minor idea or system might have incredible potential.
+Like the Internet. Was really just the idea of connecting together a couple
+of specific computers, not too many years ago.

<Kirby> Current global success film formula includes lots of guns, car chases,
+sex, good guys and bad guys, high tech glitz -- powerful propaganda, highly
+biased, mindset forming, not heavily burdened with 'facts'

<ffunch> We want drama

<cbwillis> movies and TV are more suggestive than content filled, which makes
+them very powerful!

<ffunch> We want danger

<ffunch> We want sex

<Kirby> Stars using cigs spread tobacco use like wild fire

<cbwillis> everyone likes sex

<Kirby> Making the world work, basic+exotic needs, will have to mean lots of
+sex

<ffunch> Yes, lots of sex for everybody!

<cbwillis> we have to keep things in proportion, and avoid cheap thrills and
+adrenalin rush 

<cbwillis> the illusion of being alive

<Kirby> changing role of women, away from baby factory, servant to patriarch,
+is part of the equation: but doesn't mean repressing sex

<cbwillis> I think people should fulfill their desires to the max, then after
+some excess, desires tend to find their natural level

<ffunch> Communicating ABOUT basic needs might be a big stepping stone in getting
+them fulfilled.

<Kirby> Would like to see global network involving lots of youth, using tools
+like nationless map and other identifiers, with strong leadership provided by
+women... science fiction I like to dream into reality

<ffunch> Being honest about our needs will tend to lead to a natural balance.

<cbwillis> it's the prohibition against fulfilling desires of any kind that
+makes them assume bizarre proportions in the psyche and culture

<Kirby> People project power and reality to trends and movements in ways that
+make them see "evil core conspiracy" -- to have big impact, I probably have
+to be willing to be seen as evil manipulator?

<ffunch> Removing government repression on people's sex lives, what they eat (drugs),
+and what they think, would lead towards more natural balances.

<cbwillis> I agree, let people have the experience. _God_ just allows...

<ffunch> Removing repression on sex wouldn't cost anything. It is a basic need that
+can be supported quite freely.

<cbwillis> rebalancing is built into the system, even if not in one lifetime

<ffunch> Trying to control people's needs would skew the system.

<cbwillis> has skewed the system, it's part of the scarcity game

<cbwillis> if I can have, I don't want you to have either?

<Kirby> A strong curriculum would provide access with training. You need
+training to operate a bulldozer. Legalizing drugs should be into a curricular
+context, still with restricted access based on training

<ffunch> Need to put the idea out there that it is OK to have needs, and OK if they
+are fulfilled.

<Kirby> ...not "here kid, try this"

<cbwillis> the charge needs to be defused, like: it's just an experience
+-helps people rebalance quicker

<ffunch> Yes, nothing much is accomplished from making things people want illegal and
+"bad". Show people how to use them. Let them find a balance by themselves,
+with appropriate guidance.

<Kirby> USA people want access to the best toys, but with little 'strings
+attached' as to how to use them. Want to drive my four-wheel off road
+wherever I want, despoiling whatever environment. Hey! It's a free country.

<ffunch> Responsibility need to be part of the package.

<cbwillis> environmental protection, human dignity, safe sex

<ffunch> You are free to make your own choices, but you have to take responsibily for
+them, get the needed information, learn the effects of what you are doing.

<cbwillis> getting people to think in terms of what effect(s) their actions
+will have short and long term

<Kirby> A strong curriculum would distribute resources to a global
+student/faculty based on their curriculum needs...

<cbwillis> think into the future in other words
*** haze (~haze@ppp-e-246.pinn.net) has joined channel #ncn

<ffunch> We have been too used to doing what we can get away with.

<Kirby> Model of resource distribution via curriculum circuits: GST competes
+with Econ 101 showing how we can distribute by other than 'free market
+commerce'

<ffunch> Hello Haze, who are you?

<haze> Hello ffunch

<haze> I have been on the ncn mailer for a while but never had the chance to
+join one of the discussions.

<ffunch> Good to see you here. We're ending off soon, though.

<haze> Oh well maybe i can catch more next time.

<ffunch> We'll have another chat next week.

<Kirby> We've been discussion how/whether basic needs of humanity might be
+meetable in a future we'll live to experience

<cbwillis> join us again soon haze.  I need to be going now, busy day. Be
+well, see you soon...
*** Signoff: cbwillis (Leaving)

<ffunch> Becoming more clear on what basic needs are, and how we canlink up with ways
+of meeting them.

<haze> I think we will also meet our basic needs...no matter what the future

<ffunch> I think we will. 

<Kirby> Concluding remark: have to make basic need fulfillment a strongly felt
+'exotic need' for those of us who already have basic needs met

<ffunch> YEs, it has to be exciting, not just something we HAVE to do.

<ffunch> Anyway, we'll be ending off.

<ffunch> SAme place, same time, next week.

<Kirby> Thanks for a fine 90 minutes. Most enjoyed.

<haze> I will try and make it earlier next time.

<ffunch> I enjoyed it too.
*** Signoff: Bobster (EOF From client)

<Kirby> Hasta la vista

<ffunch> See you haze, see you Kirby, see you Bob, See you CB, and anybody else.

<ffunch> bye, bye.