NCN Chat 5 Nov 95
The New Civilization Person

#ncn       ffunch    H@  ffunch@netcom20.netcom.com (Flemming Funch)
*** shardmind (wilsondl@199.183.201.115) has joined channel #ncn

<shardmind> Good morning Flemming, This is Del

<ffunch> Del, hi, good to see you!

<shardmind> Sorry I didn't make the other chats, but I missed the times.

<ffunch> Well, you found it this time

<shardmind> I do have some new W*Knet pages to link in.

<ffunch> Great

<shardmind> They are on the newciv server under WKN/index.html

<ffunch> I'm working on web scripts right now

<ffunch> Yes, I didn't look them up yet

<ffunch> I'll make links to them shortly

<shardmind> No hurry. You may have some recommendations first..

<ffunch> I'm making an interactive NCN member information areas. Next I'll look at
+the knowledge network scheme I talked about.

<shardmind> I have some address for Netforum and WebChat that may help

<ffunch> A lot of nice things one can do with interactive web pages.

<ffunch> I checked out webchat, that is very nice.

<ffunch> What is Netforum?

<shardmind> Similar to WebChat, but with multiple threads

<ffunch> I'd like to make something like that specivically for NCN threads.

<shardmind> I'll send you the address. It is in the W3.org server.

<ffunch> Yes, gotta see how they do it.

<ffunch> I'd like to look into meeting software also.

<ffunch> Groupware.
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<ffunch> Hi CB!

<cbwillis> hi, sorry I'm late

<ffunch> No problem

<ffunch> Just talking about web chat and interactive group software

<cbwillis> hi shardmind, I don't believe we've met!

<cbwillis> I don't know a thing about them

<shardmind> Hi, CB. No I haven't been here before. Nice to meet ypu

<shardmind> www.w3.org/hypetext/WWW/WIT/User/Overview.html called "wit"

<ffunch> Shardmind is Del Wilson, CB

<shardmind> Sorry.

<cbwillis> oh, ok, I recognize the name  

<ffunch> from World Knowledge Network fame

<ffunch> Thanks Del

<shardmind> Another, FF -Netforum (www.biostat.wisc.edu/nf_home) for online
+dissucssion

<shardmind> What's up CB?

<ffunch> I would like software that supports a developing mindmap during a meeting.
*** Kirby (Username@ip-pdx06-61.teleport.com) has joined channel #ncn

<ffunch> Hi Kirby!

<Kirby> Howdy

<shardmind> HI Kirby, Del Wilson here

<cbwillis> I know a guy who uses software to document a meeting, including
+overheads

<cbwillis> Bernie in Palo Alto, forgot his last name

<Kirby> Hi Del

<ffunch> I'd like ways of doing it in web pages, keeping track of different kinds of
+communications, agendas, anonymous, action steps, wild ideas, etc.

<ffunch> Anyway, subject of today is "The New Civilization Person"
*** shardmind is now known as Del

<Kirby> Long history of 'the new man' in literature

<ffunch> What are some characteristics of such a "new man"?

<Kirby> My first question is whether we can conceive of a newciv wherein
+overhaul of mind/soul/spirit is NOT the defining characteristic

<ffunch> Probably we shouldn't. I think that is essential.

<cbwillis> the new civ person is balanced and developed
+spiritual/mental/emotional/physical.  Under spiritual I include ethical

<ffunch> integrated, flexible, openminded

<Del> Independant and interdependant

<cbwillis> visionary yet energetic, healthy, and capable of action

<Del> Able to increase his capacity to learn and listen

<ffunch> Tolerant of other's behavior, but tries not to violate other's boundaries.

<Kirby> People are always skeptical of newciv saying "you can't change human
+nature" -- I always wonder if 'human nature' is the problem

<ffunch> Problem might be that we aren't truly expressing human nature.

<cbwillis> human nature is a cop out

<Del> Isn't human nature a misnomer for today's civ?

<ffunch> We need to set our basic nature free

<ffunch> Human nature is often used as an excuse for doing unethical acts.

<cbwillis> right

<Kirby> Seems if people have the option of not being cut throat they're happy,
+just the game as set up require ruthless (mostly by proxy -- we just shop the
+malls)

<Del> Describe 'basic nature'

<ffunch> I believe humans are fundamentally benevolent. Trying to make things work
+the best they can with the means they have available.

<Del> If we are fundamentally so, why are we more obvious in it

<ffunch> Humans will rather want to feel good and be united than feeling bad and
+separated. When they have the choice.

<Kirby> So 'the means they have available' is a variable -- changes over
+time...

<ffunch> I think our current society twists human nature in unnatural ways.

<ffunch> Yes, people might not have the means or knowledge currently, but if it is
+made available they will choose the most optimum that they see.

<Del> So the new civ man follows the basic instincts and ignores society
+pressures

<cbwillis> The human part of our nature can be molded in any number of ways
+(conditioned).  It's the spiritual part that needs drawing out, educating.

<ffunch> Part of basic instincts would be to make things work for others too.

<ffunch> Ignoring unnatural and unreasonable pressures.

<cbwillis> There is a part of our instincts that is very spiritual, I call
+"core energy".

<ffunch> A criminal is not just a bad person, but what is of interest is what system
+that person lives in that makes criminality appear as the most optimum
+choice.

<Del> The new civ man exploits his core energy?

<cbwillis> exploits in the best sense of the term!

<Del> yes

<ffunch> Yes, I think we need to get in touch with our core, our essence, rather than
+staying on the surface, going for short-term gains.

<Kirby> If self-interest and contributing to the greater whole were to
+converge, it'd be a relief and release I'd think

<cbwillis> core energy being the energy at core (in the lower torso), yielding
+gut level intuition, moving center, magnetic center, the ability to read the
+truth in any given situation, know what's so

<ffunch> We need to get over the idea that self-interest and community-interest are
+opposed.

<Del> Self interests. Does that lead to controling behavior?

<ffunch> Right, CB, each person has the ability to know the truth, to sense it.

<cbwillis> and to name it

<ffunch> Self-interest to the exclusion of interest in others would lead to
+controlling behavior. Doesn't mean that self-interest in itself is bad.

<Del> Self improvement may be a better way to see it.

<cbwillis> I'd be worried about a person who wasn't interested in themself

<ffunch> We need to go in the direction of Both-And rather than Either-Or.

<cbwillis> We need an "inclusive logic."

<ffunch> Enlightened self-interest would be to take care of the greater whole.

<Del> Yes I agree.

<ffunch> A person who only takes care of "himself" simply has a very small idea of
+who he really is.

<cbwillis> We need dual vision: global and local

<cbwillis> Think global, act local, and think local, act global.

<ffunch> yes

<Del> "How may I help the whole" questions lead to understanding

<ffunch> Yes, if we aren't looking at making the whole work, we can't quite make a
+fragment work more than in a short-lived, short-sighted manner.

<ffunch> How do we cultivate a new civilization person?

<cbwillis> Although that's what a lot of people try to do, just make their
+little corner work, if they give up in cynicism about efforts to help groups
+and whole.

<Del> Maybe if we discect the question "Ho may I hlep the whole?"

<ffunch> We need to foster more hope that one actually CAN do something about the
+bigger groups.

<ffunch> How may I help the whole? Yes, that is a good one. What is my role in the
+whole, what can I uniquely provide that nobody else can do, or nobody else
+sees need doing.

<cbwillis> Foster hope with workable methods, else "hope" ends in feeling
+hopeless

<Del> wish I could type

<ffunch> Empowering people to actually be able to do something, rather than just
+sitting around hoping.

<Del> Show them 'how'

<ffunch> You're doing find, Del.

<ffunch> fine I mean, I can't type.

<Del> tell them why 'may' is important

<cbwillis> newciv person needs keyboarding skills

<ffunch> Yes, show people how, give them some tools, don't just give them words and
+no tools.

<Del> help them understand the 'I" part

<ffunch> Newciv person needs to be fluent in communications technologies.

<Del> show them what help is needed

<Del> expsoe them to the whole

<ffunch> All anybody really needs is to feel that what they are doing is meaningful.

<cbwillis> Newciv person needs authenticity - bypassing some old and bogus
+communication technologies

<ffunch> Yes, being authentic, I'm taking a liking to that term.

<cbwillis> popular among therapists

<ffunch> Being REAL, also.

<cbwillis> and existential philrs

<Del> Peter Senge once asked me if I could create something for the sake of
+what I created and notheing more.

<ffunch> Right, creating because you feel like it, rather than because you HAVE to or
+somebody else tells you to.

<cbwillis> what did you say?

<cbwillis> I gather the question is about no feelings back to you either?

<Del> Are we looking that question in the face and blinking? I debated for a
+while and had no real good answer

<cbwillis> I could see doing something for a child because it needed to be
+done as an answer to the q

<ffunch> It is sometimes hard to face for people that they can do something simply
+because THEY find it meaningful.

<ffunch> We often try to define ourselves from others' expectations of us.

<ffunch> But WE are the one's deciding what is needed. I would choose to help a child
+anytime.

<Del> Creating the newciv for the sake of the newciv?

<cbwillis> part of our sense of fitting in to some larger whole

<ffunch> I think creation is often most effective if it is done sort of light-hearted
+and playfully.

<Del> populating the new civ with newciv thinking people?

<cbwillis> Is it more climbing a mountain "because it is there" or Kant's idea
+of "do your duty"

<Del> There is elation in both

<ffunch> Most of us like to do things that relate to others, but I think it works
+best if it is what we feel like doing, rather than what other groups force us
+to do.

<Del> do we do it for the elation?

<cbwillis> Doing things you don't feel like doing are the hardest

<ffunch> I think we each have an inner sense of duty, or what we need to do, or what
+really makes us excited. We need to listen to that.

<Del> Is that the essance of the newciv person?

<ffunch> Defining duty internally, rather than just taking orders from superiors.

<ffunch> A newciv person acts from inner motivation, but FOR the whole.

<cbwillis> that's great if the person is competent in doing, but a nightmare
+at work is he isn't

<cbwillis> unfortunately you can't assess such competence on a resume

<ffunch> Yes, so what do we do about people who are acting strongly from a motivation
+that isn't for the whole?

<Del> tolarance?

<ffunch> Just tolerate them and get on with our business?

<ffunch> What if their acts are destructive to what we are doing?

<Del> teach?

<Del> Lead?

<cbwillis> have a conversation with them and see what their thinking process
+is

<Del> listening is important

<Kirby> I think 'us' (newciv minded) vs. 'them' (the selfish hoardes) is
+probably unproductive

<cbwillis> then steer their thinking in a different or expanded direction

<ffunch> We can't expect everybody to be tolerant and altruistic, but we can listen
+and teach as best possible.

<Del> I prefer to demonstrate and let that teach.

<ffunch> Right, Kirby, doesn't work much to look down on the ones that 'don't get
+it'.

<Kirby> I think creating wider circles of relationships for each person, via
+the internet and such, is mind-expansion of the right kind

<cbwillis> demonstration doesn't work when the other person's job is
+significantly different

<ffunch> We need to get beyond any kind of us vs them scenario, towards only a WE.

<Kirby> not just cross-cultural, but cross-generational...

<cbwillis> besides they may have a history that leads to a blind spot on what
+you're demonstrating

<Del> CB, there is more to show than seen at work

<ffunch> The Internet is a training in being tolerant and relating to people who are
+different and that you might not agree with.

<cbwillis> absolutely

<Kirby> What the oldciv lacked was a sense of really knowing people way
+outside one's face-to-face reality

<Del> I doubt that very many people at my work care about the newciv yet.

<ffunch> We are being cultivated with diversity.

<Kirby> in those terms 'the newciv' I doubt we'll get overwhelming interest

<ffunch> Several people at my work are very interested in new civ ideas, particularly
+after looking at my web site.

<Kirby> huge changes can happen and people have the enormous power to accept
+and take for granted

<ffunch> We don't have to call it newciv at all.

<Kirby> saw a documentary on A&E yesterday called 'The Future that Never
+Happened' -- all about future projections (newcivs) that never materialized
+as projected

<ffunch> It is more an attitude, a feel, a vision, a way of relating.

<cbwillis> newciv could get fashionable, Uranus going into Aquarius. And the
+babies born in the next 7 years will be the ones to implement newciv in a big
+way in 25+ years

<Del> behavior of the heart and spirit vs mind and materialism

<ffunch> It might suddenly become THE thing to be into.

<Kirby> I think of newciv as meaning very cosmopolitan, eating Thai food
+without thinking this is something 'foreign' or 'different' -- just more food

<cbwillis> with Uranus, sudden is the word

<cbwillis> we are developing planetary consciousness in spite of ourselves!

<ffunch> Accepting the whole world as our home, being planetary citizens.

<cbwillis> enjoying different foods is an instinctive mode of accetance

<ffunch> Crewmember, Spaceship Earth.

<Kirby> Newciv is also more focussed around cities than nations -- you fly
+around and get to know cities

<Del> acting in such a way the the planet accepts us as benevolent

<Kirby> everyone now has a bigger backyard: the whole planet

<ffunch> Both smaller groupings (cities, communities) and bigger groupings (global
+society). Doing away with some of the inbetween nationalism.

<cbwillis> when internet allows us to visit cities in real time online, peep
+at London in various areas, then we will feel our consciousness expanding

<Kirby> I shouldn't have mentioned Thai food: I'm hungry now

<cbwillis> just like we feel the spaceship Enterprise is real, in our lives

<Kirby> internet has remote cameras, updating every few minutes, but their
+mostly focused on frogs and fish

<Del> I am concerned about the new civ person living in the old civ  - and
+propsering

<cbwillis> frogs and fish ?? they're good too, we could learn a lot  :)

<cbwillis> it's communications that allow the newciv person to prosper 

<ffunch> Would change our minds when we can pick real time vidio from multiple places
+in any major city in the world from off the web.
*setebos* hello - mind if i join in?

<ffunch> hi setebos, who are you?

<Del> My company has a live shot of our office on the net. But you can't see
+people because they move too fast.

<Kirby> newciv baby just showed up, wants to do CDROM.  Mom took her
+downstairs to make speghetti

<ffunch> Kirby, didn't she want to go on the web?

<Kirby> could you stand in front of the camera with a silly grin for a minute
+and get it published globally?

<ffunch> Sure.

<Del> Yes we do when someone asks us to.

<Kirby> Flemming: she's only 17 months, not a big surfer yet

<ffunch> How does a new civ person live in the old civ world.

<Kirby> Maybe "new civ" is a frame of mind to where there simply is no old civ
+world anymore

<cbwillis> he creates pockets of subculture

<cbwillis> builds relationships

<ffunch> Can you just act as a new civ person and allow the effects of that to spread
+as rings in the water?

<cbwillis> knows how to enroll authentically

<cbwillis> and listen

<ffunch> Right, pockets of subculture, I like that.

<cbwillis> and ask good questions

<ffunch> Create a safe bubble and relate honestly with anybody.

<cbwillis> he learns how to sound the note in a dignified way

<Del> Live there as you see the living to be beneficial to the whole.

<ffunch> Translate his vision and views to different kinds of frameworks.

<Kirby> To feel all humans are living in a civ with a whole new set of
+possibilities: there is no old civ left

<ffunch> Right.

<cbwillis> he makes maximum use of internet to gather like minded people

<ffunch> Simply assume that this IS the new civ. Don't start fighting the old civ.

<Kirby> right, this is it

<cbwillis> It is the new civ now because we make it so!

<Del> We make it so by demonstration - hence the chat.

<ffunch> Yes. That we simply work and relate to each other in a new civ way is making
+it so.

<Del> all four of us today.

<Kirby> the 'old civ' is a frame of mind in oneself -- forgetting
+possibilities I have, reacting in ways that are less than optimum

<ffunch> Demonstrate it, do it, feel it, experience it, show it. Don't argue about
+it.

<cbwillis> the right people always show up

<cbwillis> "New Civilization is a state of mind"

<ffunch> right!

<Del> "New Civ-ness"

<ffunch> We can start right away, doesn't take any expenditure of money, no buildings
+etc.

<ffunch> New Civility

<Kirby> My friend Jim Morrissett is going to try joining this discussion
*setebos* sorry to bother you - is #ncn a private convo?  you've got it set to
+require a key - just wondering if that's intentional.

<cbwillis> then there's the verb form: to new-civ

<cbwillis> yes, the double meaning of civility

<Del> Its the diffence between a horse and horseness

<cbwillis> the eidos

<ffunch> YEs, it has a key because it is semi-private. It is a discussion of the New
+Civilization Network. How did you get in here? You are welcome to join in
+since you are here.

<Kirby> Flemming: who are you talking to?

<ffunch> new-civ as a verb, yes. We can new-civ our workplace, our home, our
+relations, our personal lives.

<cbwillis> sort of like retrofitting, only better!

<Del> applying new-civness to our lives.

<ffunch> pro-fitting

<cbwillis> great!

<ffunch> sorry, that sounds like profit

<cbwillis> is that a problem :)

<ffunch> but something like that, the oopposite of retro-fitting.

<Del> the world will profit - yes?

<Kirby> Flemming: if Jim has the password, should he be able to join?

<cbwillis> isn't this kind of an invitation only, networking by friends sort
+of thing - that sort of idea

<ffunch> Yes, anybody with the password can join.

<Del> tch, tch, tch,

<ffunch> Yes, by invitation only. But I suppose that if any of us has a friend that
+is like-minded it should work too.

<cbwillis> that's what I meant

<cbwillis> del, what do you mean (tch)

<ffunch> We could re-define profit to mean "fit for the future". Pro-Fit.

<Kirby> Jim only gets 'sorry, cannot join channel' (is there a list of
+approved people?)

<ffunch> No

<Del> I was thinking that we are looking for more input and would welcome
+diversity.

<ffunch> It should be /join #ncn tolerance

<cbwillis> ok, as long as diversity does not include hostility or cynicism,
+which might be unproductive on a chat
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<setebos> hello

<Del> Hi Setebos

<ffunch> Yes, it has to happen in a tolerant way, being open to the views of others.

<cbwillis> that's why the password is tolerance

<ffunch> Luckily it usually works out so the right people are here.

<ffunch> Yep

<ffunch> What kind of environment will encourage new-civ'y traits in people?

<cbwillis> high aesthetic

<ffunch> openness

<cbwillis> inspirational

<cbwillis> validating

<ffunch> tolerant, multi-viewpoint

<Del> Encourageing, fostering, open, listening

<ffunch> supportive

<ffunch> diverse

<cbwillis> lots of resources and tools

<cbwillis> simple and clean

<ffunch> focus on action, change

<ffunch> positive, constructive

<cbwillis> multicultural

<Del> Creative

<ffunch> exciting

<cbwillis> unrushed

<ffunch> playful

<cbwillis> good questions

<ffunch> multi-dimensional

<Del> thought provoking

<ffunch> Challenging

<Del> appreciative

<ffunch> boundary-expanding

<cbwillis> high ethical standards

<ffunch> rewarding uniqueness of contribution

<cbwillis> ability to spot and avoid logical fallacies and abusive behaviors

<ffunch> honest in-the-moment responses

<cbwillis> appreciation of individuality

<Del> learning

<cbwillis> honesty with kindness

<ffunch> building a mosaic together

<ffunch> co-creation

<ffunch> synergy

<cbwillis> visionary but grounded

<Kirby> lunch soon
* Kirby has food on his mind

<cbwillis> lots of good food

<ffunch> an orchestral piece with different themes inter-weaving

<ffunch> all-you-can-eat

<Del> My wonderfull wife just handed me my lunch.

<ffunch> Now I'm getting hungry

<cbwillis> now that we're all hungry, it is time to wrap?

<ffunch> YEs, I think so. Let's go and eat!

<cbwillis> LOL

<Del> Next Wee?

<Kirby> I'm going to disconnect -- same bat time/place next week?

<ffunch> Thanks all for coming, and bring some food next time and we'll have a
+potluck.

<Del> week?

<ffunch> NExt week same time.

<ffunch> Take care, see you around.

<Del> bye all

<cbwillis> I enjoyed everyone, see you later.
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