NCN Chat 7 Jan 96
Technology in or for a new civilization

*** Del (wilsondl@ix-dfw14-03.ix.netcom.com) has joined channel #ncn

<Del> OK now?

<Flemming> Hello again, Del

<Flemming> Yes, got to be the operator now, and set the password

<Del> How are you doing my friend?

<Flemming> Doing very well. Still not enough hours in the day.

<Del> I would like you opion on WEBOOGL for the W*knet. Have you seen it?

<Flemming> Eh, I missed that. Was that posted on the wknet list?

<Del> No, but you might check out
+http://www.geom.umn.edu/docs/weboogl/weboogl.html

<Del> It may work for some of our thoughts.

<Flemming> I certainly will.

<Flemming> What's the oogl for?

<Del> It must run on SGI or SUN, neither of which I have.

<Del> Obj. Orient. Graphics Language. I think

<Flemming> Hm. Neither do I.

<Del> Does NCN run on a sun?

<Flemming> I have a number of links for web conferencing and stuff like that I still
+need to check out.

<Del> I heard that.

<Flemming> No, newciv.org is on a 486.

<Flemming> The servers for netcom that I use some times use Sun.

<Del> Do you know what http server is used?

<Flemming> But I don't think I can run a big web thing from there.

<Flemming> For newciv.org it is the Cern. But it could just as well use NCSA.

<Flemming> Netcom doesn't offer a web server yet, even though they have one.

<Del> I have a small windows server at work, but it won't run it either.

<Del> Netcom won't let us do it. Maybe metornet will ..

<Flemming> I have been doing a good deal of web programming recently. Almost ready with
+my NCN member information system.

<Del> I have been learning..

<Del> What is today's topic any way, I forgot to look.

<Flemming> I'm trying to do a very simply bulletin board or conferencing on a web page.

<Del> There are several tools out there that do that now.

<Flemming> Today's sybject is: "Technology in and for a new civilization"

<Flemming> Yes, I haven't checked out what is there yet. I will, to avoid reinventing
+the wheel.

<Del> RE topic, We all need SGI systems. :o)

<Flemming> I have one of these new ergonomic keyboards, haven't quite gotten used to it
+yet.

<Flemming> Yes, graphics workstations for everybody. 

<Del> So do I and I am still getting used to it too.

<Del> Do you think we can get a grant for our machines?

<Flemming> And, on technology, I'm getting an ISDN line installed in my house next
+week. Hope it can be useful in some kind of videoconferencing or something
+soon.

<Del> I want one too. Can't get it yet.

<Flemming> I've pretty much given up in advance on grants. Would probably rather think
+ up new businesses.

<Del> I was only kidding.

<Flemming> It is quite cheap and simple in my area now. Pac Tel are really pushing it.

<Del> We have a lot of learning to do.

<Flemming> I think there must be some more synergy possible.

<Flemming> Haven't quite figured out how to do new civ business.

<Del> Do you know if anyone else is planning on joining?

<Flemming> Several people expressed interest, but they don't always make it.

<Flemming> Actually it is usually the people who didn't mention anything about it who
+show up.

<Del> What say we give them another 10 minutes and decide what to do.

<Flemming> But if nobody else will come, let's just have a shortened chat on the
+subject.

<Del> OK

<Flemming> Technology in or for a new civilization.

<Flemming> What will be the role of technology in a new civ?

<Del> What do you think of the "Things that Think" program at MIT? It may well
+be a role like that.

<Flemming> Haven't heard of that one. But you mean appliances with built-in
+intelligence?

<Del> More than appliances. EVERYTHING will have it.

<Flemming> I definitely think technology can support a new better world.

<Flemming> So, like your table, your pencil, a lamp.

<Del> I like what Kevin Kelly says in his book.

<Flemming> Me too. And he gives some of the key principles.

<Flemming> Start with simple things, make them work, then build up complexity of simple
+things that already work.

<Del> Yes, everything, shoes, watches, ties, shirts, pencils, desks, doors,
+windows, all of them.

<Flemming> Now, is technology something we have to control, guide, or should we just
+let it happen?

<Flemming> I mean, some technologies are less conducive to a more harmonic world than
+others.

<Del> Technology will bring knowledge to everyone. We can't control it. We
+won't even guide it.

<Del> It will happen.

<Del> We will use it.

<Flemming> Maybe we just need to concentrate on ourselves, our personal harmony, and
+the technology will follow.

<Flemming> Rather than trying to make the technology what we aren't.

<Del> More than that.

<Del> We will use technology to concentrate on ourselves.

<Flemming> If somebody has a need for shooting something, there will be guns. If nobody
+needs to, we wouldn't need them.

<Del> It will enable us to evolve.

<Flemming> Technology can amplify ourselves.

<Flemming> Technology is amplifying tools.

<Del> Also, it is for focusing too.

<Flemming> Technology shows us our weak sides, because they get amplified.

<Flemming> I think there are two distinct uses of technology.

<Flemming> It can be used for magnifying our human qualities and experience.

<Flemming> Or, it can be used in a de-humanizing way, to cover them up.

<Del> It will allow us to use our stengths and thereby they will become less
+significant.

<Flemming> Like, a factory tends to be de-humanizing, but where a sewing machine in a
+home can enable somebody to be more creative.

<Flemming> We just have to pay attention to what we are doing with technology
+personally.

<Flemming> Does it make us more of what we are, more of what we want to be, or does it
+make us less alive.

<Del> I will use it to become more humanized not less.

<Del> Some may not.

<Flemming> And I think more people will be aware of the possibilities and will choose
+that way.

<Flemming> Technology is getting more personal I think.

<Flemming> More in people's hands.

<Del> I can't control it, but I can chose how I use it.

*** rysa (rysa@205.138.107.46) has joined channel #ncn

<Flemming> Hey, Rich, good to see you here!

<rysa> I am just feeling my way around here

<Flemming> Well, you found us. Just me and Del Wilson right now.

<rysa> I guess there are others on line ok

<Flemming> Well, sometimes not very many people make it here.

<rysa> I understand...

<Flemming> Subject of today is "Technology in or for a new civilization"

<rysa> Ok let's go to it

<rysa> One of the things that you mentioned in a letter is the fourth wave

<Flemming> What will be the role of technology in a new civ?

<rysa> Right now it is used for frustration eh? :-)

<Flemming> Yes, fourth wave. I think it will be about more inspiration, more doing what
+one really enjoys and see needs doing.

<Flemming> I think technology will become more personally enabling. 

<rysa> My partner and I have said that all people are out of context

<Flemming> Not just subordinating oneself to technology, but using if for what one
+really wants to do.

<rysa> By out of context we mean that no one is doing what they should do and
+so it requires learning about oneself... Education

<Flemming> People need to find their own personal context. Where exactly they fit in
+perfectly in the world.

<rysa> Right...

<rysa> The question is how can technology help

<Flemming> Part of what drives life is that things aren't quite perfect. But we are
+striving for making them better.

<Del> Rysa, how do you put yourself into context?

<Flemming> Depends on how we use techynology.

<rysa> The first question is who am I?

<Flemming> If we use technology in an empowering way, to become more alive, then it is
+helpful.

<rysa> Del you see most people are programmed wrong ... do you agree

<Del> yes, very much so..

<Flemming> We need to find out inner programming.

<Flemming> Not just try to fit into the external circumstances.

<rysa> Right Flemming but we are in constant survival mode

<rysa> We are doing this very Celestine... who has the most important insight

<Del> I can see how I would use Tech. to help me stay focused.

<Flemming> If we can use technology to get people more focused on what they really are
+there to do, then we're getting somewhere.

<Flemming> Allowing people to make their own insights.

<Del> Tech, will help me understand my place and who I am in relationship to
+others.

<Flemming> Show people where they are being subjected to external programming.

<Del> I still need to know who I am.

<Del> Tech. may help me do that too.

<Flemming> I think we're all trying to find out who we are.

<Del> I change as well.

<Flemming> And I think it is becoming increasingly important to find out who we are.

<Del> I change all the time.

<Del> I do so because I learn.

<rysa> this is part of what we have lost... story telling, the mentor guild
+relationship with the elders

<Flemming> We have trouble with the world if we haven't made clear for ourselves who we
+really are, and what our role is.

<Flemming> Take life as an adventure, experience it, tell others about it.

<Flemming> Personal relationships become more important again.

<Del> Tech. helps me learn and then apply the learning

<rysa> In relationship to technology it offers us a platform like today

<rysa> Television has been the source of one dimensional thought
+transference... It is easy but vaccous

<Flemming> I think we're going beyond the alienating effects of 2nd wave technology,
+more connecting up with what we personally can use it for.

<Flemming> Now we don't just receive the technolgoy, we will more want to configure it
+for our use, our preferences.

<rysa> The power of technology has always been in the hands of the very
+powerful until the present era.. this is changing our connections

<Del> Will Tech Strentghen relationships or only allow them to be developed?

<Flemming> Depends on how it is used.

<rysa> This is a period of chaos del

<Flemming> Tech can create relationships that otherwise weren't there. Like on-line
+here for example.

<Del> Yes it is, I am looking into the chaos and trying to visualize how I
+fit.

<rysa> What I mean by chaos is that there is a great deal of freedom and
+opportunity but you have to be your own center within it

<Flemming> We still need personal direct contact, but communications technology can
+keep a relationship going better than without it.

<rysa> Technology was in our primitive eras called language, the written word
+etc

<Flemming> Chaos forces us to make up for ourselves what WE really want. Because the
+environment doesn't give a clear answer.

<Del> But, I am still deciding in my mind how I will use technology to
+strengthen relationship, and not just enable them.

<Del> Get closer.

<rysa> Very true... there are no easy answers, no religion, politics or dogma
+anymore

<Flemming> I guess we could say that all technology is a symbolic or abstract way of
+doing things. Doing it with a machine, rather than just doing it.

<Del> Does it matter if the machine is mentioned?

<Del> Why not just knowing how to get there, machine or no.

<rysa> Bringing order to a system requires a system a machine is a system

<Flemming> And I think it is a good thing in many ways that the world is more
+confusing. People then have to get into themselves to get answer. They might
+not do that if the world was more si;mple.

<Flemming> We will concentrate more on what we really want, and the technology or other
+means will just be secondary.

<Flemming> In the 2nd wave industrial revolution technology became No1, the master.
+Now that is changing.

<Del> We will be doing things we could never have done before because of the
+tech. However, the tech. will not be very evident.

<rysa> So to summarize we are fulfilling a system development, moving from
+individual being to a collective synergy... From newtonian physics to
+Quantum...

<Del> It will be ubiquitous.

<Flemming> Now it is already what you can do with the technology that is important,
+knowing how to use it. And next it will be all about what YOU are inspired to
+do.

<Flemming> Yes, synergy will be the way to make big things happen. Not linear, but by
+collective spontaneous synergy.

<rysa> Inspiration requires the nourishment in order to achieve. A plant is
+inspired to grow but still needs sunlight, water, minerals etc

<Flemming> Yes, and what kind of nourishment can technology help us to provide?

<Flemming> Communication links to a variety of people.

<rysa> The free flowing distribution of all goods and services to the beings
+that are inspired

<Flemming> Putting people in touch with a diversity of constructive ideas.

<Del> Tech. is more than machine aided communications.

<Flemming> Faster exchange of goods and services.

<rysa> Information and energy is what Deepak Chopra calls the quantum field.
+the area of all possibities

<Flemming> Making everyday chores easier, so as to give us more free time to do what we
+want to do.

<rysa> This brings us back to chaos if the person is not founded in a strong
+personal understanding

<Flemming> What can be invented and put into people's homes that would drastically more
+us towards a better world?

<Del> Yes, but it the things we can't do that I see becomeing the most
+important advances in Tech.

<Flemming> Tools for dealing with chaos are needed.

<rysa> Good question? Duh

<Flemming> And information leading people to get in touch with their inner knowing.

<Del> We can do routine things now. I want to do things that I can't do now.

<Flemming> Ok, so what are some things we can't do, yet?

<rysa> There is a lot of resistance to that ... I just watched powder last
+night...

<Flemming> Teleportation.

<Flemming> Haven't seen it yet.

<Del> Reach into someone else's knowledge and use it where it exists.

<Flemming> Grasping complete frameworks of knowledge quickly.

<Del> Allow others to use my knowledge with out them learning what I know and
+Visa-versa

<Flemming> Knowledge transfer.

<Flemming> Instant learning.

<Del> No, not transfer, usage in place.

<Flemming> We don't have time to take 5 years to learn a new subject.

<Del> I don't have time to learn it all in one life time.

<Flemming> OK, be able to use the knowledge of others, without having to study it for a
+long time.

<Del> Relationships to those who allow me to use their knowedge, etc.

<Flemming> Relationships become very important.

<Flemming> How can we empower and encourage relationships?\

<Del> If I can do one thing right, then I can do that for many instances.

<Del> Together, we all contribute to the greater.

<Flemming> Should we each specialize less or more?

<rysa> Still it comes back to sharing a loving humanitarian philosophy...

<Flemming> Maybe we shouldn't bother doing things we aren't really inspired to, but
+rather look for somebody who knows how to and loves doing it.

<rysa> That sounds good and we must end racism

<Del> It is not required that we specialize, just be able to have something
+others can use.

<Flemming> Feeling safe even if we aren't controlling everything.

<Del> Maybe a bunch of things others can use.

<rysa> Utility is very important but we must reform the economic system that
+promtes slavery

<Flemming> So, concentrate on what you can do that will be of use to the world.

<Del> I could be a micro chip doing a couple things in relationship to others.

<rysa> Feeling safe is not easy when we are programed an propagandized by the
+news and entertainment media

<Flemming> Right, I don't think the current economic system supports cooperation and
+working on making the world work very well.

<Del> I could also trade that for using others capability.

<Flemming> If we have enough relationships of trust we can start feeling safe.

<Del> Hence the new system.

<rysa> Very well said... but trust begins first with being able to trust
+yourself...

<Flemming> If I have relationships of trust with people who do all of the main things I
+need, then I shouldn't really need a big external economic system.

<rysa> It also relates to forgiving yourself and others for whatever they are
+venting

<Flemming> Yes, it probably starts with trusting ourselves.

<rysa> Very well said on the fact that we can recreate our lives through micro
+economics and with micro relationships called fair contracts

<Flemming> I believe we can. How small can we practically do it?

<Del> It is a new tech. way of creating a human eviornment that is patterned
+after nature.

<Flemming> I mean, is relations with 50 people potentially enough to feel that you are
+safe.

<rysa> That is part of what we are doing now. We must go after solving peoples
+needs

<Flemming> Definitely.

<Del> Build a Micro world?

<Flemming> We must get beyond that that need is just a generic "more money" to have
+people look at what they really need and want.

<rysa> There is failure in all things... we must allow ourselves to range to
+make mistakes and to learn... is earth learning about value...

<Flemming> We should be able to build a microworld without having to ask anybody's
+permission, without starting capital, just with good relationships.

<Del> Bioshpere2 on a new level?

<Flemming> Yes

<Flemming> Econosphere

<Flemming> Sociosphere

<Del> Can we describe the human environment we are talking about? (xxshpere?)

<rysa> How can we avoid the utopianism... good name econosphere but still
+there is in the world a great deal of anger...

<Flemming> We need worthwhile things to do, we need food, we need emotional
+fulfillment, we need transportation, education, etc.

<rysa> The anger must be released before there will be trust and before anyone
+will share... our lives, our food, our knowledge etc.

<Flemming> Yes, but what if we start with an existing group of people, like NCN, and
+work on making that work.

<Del> Rich, you just hit on my biggest concern. The world anger. It is a major
+barrier. How would one release it without global destrutive impact.

<Flemming> There is anger there, and it has to be dealt with. Can't just be ignored.

<Flemming> I guess it can be released on a small scale.

<Flemming> Anger builds up if it is not given anywhere to go.

<Del> Can tech. help us get past the anger? and how?

<rysa> It must be seen and dealt with... it must be forgiven and we must grow
+up... all this requires a new myth, a new philosophy and that is what the
+whole arena of the pleadians etc are about.

<Flemming> I was actually surprised how much anger I run into just in the members of
+NCN. I somehow didn't expect that. But it needs to be dealt with.

<Del> Is NCN attempting to create a new myth?

<Flemming> Can an on-line community be enough of a Biosphere to force the participants
+to learn to relate meaningfully with each other?

<Del> Force or allow.

<Flemming> I suppose NCN is a new myth trying to happen. Not sure what it is.

<Flemming> Allow, I guess.

<Flemming> You can't really force anybody to relate well.

<rysa> This must be done by restoring dignity and then restoring integrity...
+and it comes through wisdom which must come through our hearts... but fear
+stops it all...

<Flemming> Like, you can't force people to be happy.

<Del> What new tech will allow the release of anger without being distructive?
+How does it allow the restoration of integrity?

<rysa> Education means to bring out and Religion means to bind up. We are in a
+process of accepting a new myth that we are not animals..

<rysa> So the real function of this medium is education and TOLERANCE

<rysa> I liked your password Flemming.

<rysa> I have to attend to some things now. I will check out... NIce to meet
+you Del.

<Del> Yes, learning. It is in the learning. Tech. is allowing me to learn
+faster and better.

<Flemming> Intellectual discussion tends to suppress anger. We need a better forum for
+exploring anger.

<Flemming> Yes, tolerance is key.

<Del> I must tollorate the times when I don't learn and seek our knowledge.

<rysa> Thanks again Flemming I will speak with you again soon...

<Flemming> Well, we've gone about an hour anyway.

<rysa> bye

<Flemming> See you Rich.

<Del> BUT, I need to share knowledge. It is the new money.

<Flemming> Yes, relationships, sharing, knowledge, creativity.

<Del> Thanks, see ya.

<Del> Bye Flemming..

<Flemming> See you Del.