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New Civilization News: NCN Blog Comments |
Category: Communication 34 comments 16 Jul 2004 @ 00:10 by vibrani : A comment ;-)I think you can set your log up so that only the poster can edit their comments. Even if this option is used, some people will still try to put their words into our mouths. Thanks for stating your intentions with comment posting. Sometimes people notify posters that their comments will be removed (and ask permission for that), sometimes people request the poster remove their comments because they were abusive or not on topic. You're right, though, the log owner sets the terms and that is part of the freedom here, too. 16 Jul 2004 @ 04:40 by jazzolog : Good Point One worth thinking about carefully. When I write comments anywhere, I certainly am grateful for an edit option...because I make all kinds of mistakes that I don't see until it's up there. If you haven't logged in, you don't have that option...for instance, just clicking an article out on the Splash Page. Once the general public has left a comment, they can't change it or delete it...so then the Logwriter really needs the option. I've been asked by an outside writer to please change some mistake he made, but otherwise I can't think of a good use for the device. If there's swearing or something, it's usually possible to negotiate with the commenter. And you can delete---or copy and paste to repost with an explanation. I believe I am totally alone at the Network, however, in believing the license of control Logwriters have goes beyond freedom. I think freedom involves hospitality toward and responsibility with one's readers. Ov's article seems to indicate there should be a balance between the freedom of the writer and that of the reader to comment and reply. I agree with that. 16 Jul 2004 @ 11:36 by ov : NCN Blog Comments Nora, even if the blog owner sets it up so that the owner can't edit the commenter's comments they always have the option to switch that feature off, then make edits and then switch it back on; in other words it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't provide any guarantee for the person making the comment. It requires too much trust in the blog owner, opens yourself to being invulnerable at the same time that the dominant meme is that everybody is responsible for what happens to them, so the conclusion is that unless you are mutual comrades it is not wise to comment in somebody else's blog. The dynamics of the software encourage the clique. Another good point Richard about how even if you use the blog for communicating with the outside world those people don't have the same control over their own words as if they were members. It goes beyond a balance of freedom Richard, I own my own words and that does not give anybody else the 'freedom' to change them. This was the reason behind my initial rejection of the wiki concept, but what makes wiki possible is there is an audit and roll back feature for every change made, and in this way if changes are made in good faith they can stand as is, but if a contention develops there is an objective(ie the impartiality of the software) source that is not subject to peer pressure for resolving the truth. The "Rights of the Reader" is a philosophy that goes against the grain of our Western rationality where the "writer" is the expert and the "reader" is dumb recipient into which the truth is to be downloaded. Ming made a few comments about the {link:ming.tv/flemming2.php?did=10&vid=10&xmode=show_article&amode=standard&aoffset=0&artid=000010-001316&time=1090001315|blogs and comments}. 16 Jul 2004 @ 20:27 by ming : Blogs and comments Yeah, there are various potential problems in all of this. The original idea in making comments editable for the poster was to allow them to fix mistakes right after they posted. Many people, myself included, often post before reading through what they said, and afterwards they notice spelling errors and links that don't work, and that kind of thing. And for that it is certainly very nice that you can edit them. I hadn't expected the other side effects and potential behaviors. E.g. that the comment poster comes back later and changes what they said, or deletes comments, making somebody they were having an argument with look like an idiot. I didn't expect either that some blog owners would choose to respond to comments in those comments themselves, rather than in new comments. I can see the point in that, as the response clearly goes with the comment it is responding to, but it disturbs me a bit. I do believe people should be able to own what they say. But also that blow owners need to be able to control what they want to appear in their blog. So, yes, maybe it would be most reasonable, in principle, that the owner could only delete comments, but not edit them. But there are often perfectly good reasons for doing so, like fixing a mistake that the poster can't fix. I actually haven't seen blog owners abusing the ability. I can see it several different ways. For example, I think it is valuable to see exactly what happened, historically, and I don't really like that people can go back and remove comments, after having done damage with them, and then wiping out the record of it. Likewise, I hate when a blog owner suddenly wipes out all his postings and starts over again. But weighing various interests against each other, I think it is probably best that one can do such things. There are potentially many grey areas concerning what is happening in who's space. OK, this is all happening on NCN's server, which is my server, which potentially could set some kind of global policy on what one can do. But I'd like to consider that each newslog is for practical purposes the domain of its owner, and that they're free to set their own policy for what goes on there and what they or others can do there. Which could well include the implied policy that whatever you write there instantly becomes the property of the blog owner. Quite a few sites actually have that kind of policy. Which is sometimes a necessity. Because if it is still the comment poster's property, they need to be provided the facilities to change the content at will. OK, in NCN there's some kind of compromise struck with the features that are available. Which I think generally works, but which sometimes produces uncomfortable situations, which sometimes are dissolved without an audit trail of exactly what happened. I'm very open to ways of doing it better, however. Some blogs have the self-policed custom to show all changes clearly. So if you first wrote one thing, and then change it, you put a line through the stuff it used to say, and maybe even put the changes in red or something. That would be hard to enforce through software, but potentially possible, through a wiki-like mechanism that keeps all revisions and is able to show the differences from one to the next. I personally like that kind of abilities, but it all short-circuits the first time somebody comes along and demands that an earlier version be deleted because it said somebody bad about them. 16 Jul 2004 @ 21:08 by ov : Blogs and Comments This is an old issue with me having discussed it for years over at Utne, and then later when I was hosting the Currents (Affairs) conference over at Alternet. Both were notorious for flame wars and at Alternet the censorship and deliberate disruption by agent provacateurs (paid or free lance amateurs) would use every technique in the book to prevent collaboration. That doesn't seem to be a problem on this site and probably because it avoids politics and there isn't that many people here. The one change that would be nice is only the poster has the ability to edit the comments. The owner could delete but not edit, that I think is necessary for troll control, and if a owner does delete then the worst that can happen is that the owner gets a reputation for being a censor. However, when somebody else can edit your words then they are playing with your reputation and not theirs. Being able to edit your own stuff is kind of nice and I'd be reluctant to give that up whether it's as a comment poster or an article author. Perhaps a date stamp for edits. Date stamp and name of person doing the deletion, whether comment poster or blog owner, would be usefull since I can't see it being used much, and usually when it is used it is obvious why even if the host has to make a comment that explains it. One of the problems I've found with carrying on a discussion within a comment is that unless you are in here all day every day you can't keep track of things. At least reply at the end of the list you don't have to review material you have already read. 16 Jul 2004 @ 21:09 by bushman : Hmm Guess we just got to trust people, I like the old saying, keep your loved ones close to you, and keep your enemys closer, and the Art Bell favriot, trust no one. Besides my view is that if a log owner malisuosly changes a comment someone made, just to do them harm, they should not be on this network. I gave everyone permission to fix my spelling if they like, if I make a comment and its important that the spelling is right. I like it in some situations, that the log owner can post a comment under my comment, it makes it more personal of a reply to a question I may of asked. No one has ever changed my words given freely to them on thier log, and if they don't like my comment, they can delet it, no big deal. I do like the idea of showing the comment was deleted like ming does in the lefthand chat rooms though. And maybe add, why, like, inappropriate, off topic, vulgar language, etc..., since that would help the person maybe re-word what they might of said in haste. I mean ever get dumped by a girl/boy friend, and not know why? lol. Stuff like that could damage a person for a long time. I like the strike out idea too if it was automatic in the software. It's about learning to trust people in your heart, till they tear it out. Because we all know, even your closest loved ones do tend to tear you up sometimes. And then you get to forgive them for it. :} P.S fotolog.net, sends an email to you when somone posts a comment, I often wondered why the NCN system robot dosn't do this thru the message center thing. Maybe when the log owner adds a comment to your comment, the system robot could note that, and send a message to the original poster, "comment updated" with the url to the comment page it's from. 17 Jul 2004 @ 00:22 by ov : Blogs and Comments I'd just a soon not have to force my readers into a position where they even have to think about trusting me. Especially since it's not necessary. Things are moving too fast to spend years getting all warm and fuzzy. People that have an idea to contribute may just be passing through. Why burden them with this trust issue, it just makes it more likely that they will go away without adding the bit of information that I'm looking for. 17 Jul 2004 @ 03:07 by jazzolog : "Blow Owners" I think your typo (3rd paragraph 16 Jul 2004 @ 20:27) is pretty funny, Ming. Maybe "blow" is what the "b" stands for in that horrible word BLOG. :-) And I find this entry really is helping me blow off some pressure at the heart of the whole Logging experience. I got mad at this site a year ago, moved my whole Log to Upsaid.com (for which service there is a slight charge now), and eradicated it here. Some personal material about me, with which I disagree, was posted at another Log, and I was blocked from replying to it. My alternative was to post a rejoinder at my own Log, which I had done before twice in earlier months, and it really becomes tiresome---so I just blew the whole joint. (I like that word "blow".) Some conflict resolution teams became a result partially of that...and I'd say that's an improvement. But the discussion here is even more basic. By the way Bushman, Upsaid lets you know when there's a new comment too, and it's really cool. Sindy's site used to do that as well, but not sure now after some changes there. (Imagine, if you stop by you could let us know.) I think also everybody knows I am alone in opposing the notion of "owning" a Log, as in the sense of private property. If anybody owns anything in here, it's probably the guy who owns the server and is responsible legally for what goes on. I wouldn't be surprised if a court case in the States somewhere already has established that fact. Anyway I believe we each must own our Logs morally and that means interacting with a sense of community responsibility that Ov is touching on. Such an atmosphere needn't and shouldn't crimp anybody's personal style or opinions. But in this day of Global Privatization (even of water and air) the less the New Civilization involves itself in private ownership the better, I say. The fact is I don't remember my comments well enough to know if somebody fools with them slightly or not. Sometimes my English teacher temperament wants to go in to correct a typo I know somebody made without realizing---but I always leave it as is. I guess I'd be in favor of releasing the Logwriter control on that editing thing. I think any unforeseen problems that might arise could be remedied through emailing...and ultimately maybe deleting and reposting. I'm really grateful Ov has brought up this issue! 17 Jul 2004 @ 23:58 by magical_melody : Glad to see this dialogue, as I know you Ov have been wishing to discuss these issues for awhile. Really good points expressed here. Ov, you have been participating in many of these online groups for awhile, and have a broad knowledge of various types of software too, so I see your input as valuable. I even noticed that Flemming wrote what you had in fact mentioned when you first came into NCN. (RE: The challenge of remembering where you responded to a comment within a log so that you could return again to follow-up with the response). I like the idea of when a reply comes to one's comment, that the software can notify you through your email. I am familiar with that one through other sites and software that I have been involved with too. Flemming, is that possible here in NCN? 18 Jul 2004 @ 08:54 by ming : Notification of responses That would be a good thing, yes. It should probably be optional, but, yes, it can be very useful. But, actually, it is not entirely easy to figure out exactly when somebody should be notified of a response. You know, if you left a comment in somebody else's article. How do you know when somebody answers your partifular comment? Would you want to be notified of all postings that appear in a thread you've posted to? That wouldn't particularly be fun if there are, like, a hundred posts. Maybe you'd prefer getting a daily or weekly reminder of which threads you've participated in have new comments? 18 Jul 2004 @ 10:48 by ov : email notification How I've seen email notification used on most software that does this is to have a checkbox close to the input box so the user can decide on a post by post basis. Some have a dafault setting that you can set and then you can undecide to uncheck, but again it is a post by post deciscion by the user. Only one email gets sent per thread, so if there are two mor more comments following yours you would only get one email notification. It is also nice with email notification if there is a link in the email that takes you directly to the comment so that you don't have to navigate to get there. I've seen some systems that also state in the email the name of the person that responded your comment. In effect along with the link to the comment they would include the header line of the comment that follows yours. That way if the comment is a quick dismissive by somebody that you know that never has much to say then you don't get your hopes up and can choose to wait awhile before checking back. Email notification can be particularly nice when you participate in multiple communities. 19 Jul 2004 @ 15:05 by magical_melody : Good points guys! Thanks. Thanks for the feedback Flemming and Ov. The options sound interesting to explore. As we are living within the in-form-ation age, support for more efficiency regards the processing and filtering for 'essential' information (input and output) is vital! 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