| Addendum to Cause and Effect: Understanding the Concept of Dependent Co-Arising | |
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 13 Aug 2003 @ 13:16, by Max Sandor
Catching up on some old e-mail that I never got around to answer:
From Ed <..>
To: Ingrid <..>
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 12:14 PM
CC: Max
[refering to Gotamo, aka the 'Buddha']
...
> I never did understand WHAT THE HELL was meant by "dependent coarising" before! It never made a bit of sense to me, I thought that the translation must be screwy or something.
>Now I get it. You are right, he is talking polarities, AND...
> And by extension, every time he says "dependent co-arising" I will now know that he means: "Any reaction to a sense impression is a polarized reaction, creating both a positive and a negative which depend upon each other for existence." I'm cc'ing this to Max also. I wonder what the original Pali words are for "dependent co-arising"? Max? >Ed
the excerpt you refer to is in Pali: "Ta~nca kho sa.nkhata.m olaarika.m pa.ticcasamuuppanna.m."
My translation: "And this thing is assembled, charged, arisen in dependence."
So, "pa.ticcasamuuppanna.m." would be the word you are looking for. Note, that most translators say 'gross' for "olaarika.m" but Gotamo explicitly calls its 'extremely subtle' in other places. So 'gross' doesn't make sense.
In other words (mine, to be precise):
"this thing [the resulting polarity] is assembled [by its opposing poles], it is charged, and it appears [only] in dependence on both poles."
Finally consider the beauty of this superb, out-of-this-world poetry in the end of the Sutta:
"Tassa ta.m uppanna.m manaapa.m uppanna.m amanaaa.m uppanna.m manaapapaanaapa.m nirujjhati, upekkhaa sa.n.thaati."
Beats any hip-hop line by miles ;-)
What he is saying is basically:
"Through confronting of the what is wanted and of what is unwanted at the same time, one is transcending both and only Pleroma remains."
Amen.
Note: Seeee !!! I do answer all my e-mail!
(Ok, ok, 10 months is a bit much... hmm)
Note: With Pleroma (Greek) = uppekha (Pali) = suuru (yoruba)= 'sacred equanimity'.
The translation that Ingrid quoted follows here:
> Majjhima Nikaya 152 > > Indriya-bhavana Sutta > > The Development of the Faculties > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- ------ > > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying among > > the Kajjangalas in the Bamboo Grove. Then the young brahman Uttara, > > a student > > of Parasiri (Parasivi) went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged > > friendly greetings & courtesies. After this exchange of courteous > > greetings he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed > > One said to him: "Uttara, does the brahman Parasiri teach his > > followers the development of the faculties?" > > > > "Yes, master Gotama, he does." > > > > "And how does he teach his followers the development of the > > faculties?" > > > > "There is the case where one does not see forms with the eye, or > > hear sounds with the ear [in a trance of non-perception]. That's how > > the brahman Parasiri teaches his followers the development of the faculties." > > > > "That being the case, Uttara, then a blind person will have > > developed faculties, and a deaf person will have developed > > faculties, according to the words of the brahman Parasiri. For a > > blind person does not see forms with the eye, and a deaf person does > > not hear sounds with the ear." > > > > When this was said, the young brahman Uttara sat silent & abashed, > > his shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words. > > The Blessed One -- noticing that Uttara was sitting silent & > > abashed, his shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a loss > > for words -- said to > > Ven. Ananda, "Ananda, the development of the faculties that the > > brahman Parasiri teaches his followers is one thing, but the > > unexcelled development of the faculties in the discipline of a noble > > one is something > > else entirely." > > > > "Now is the time, O Blessed One. Now is the time, O One Well-Gone, > > for the > > Blessed One to teach the unexcelled development of the faculties in > > the discipline of the noble one. Having heard the Blessed One, the > > monks will > > remember it." > > > > "In that case, Ananda, listen & pay close attention. I will speak." > > > > "As you say, lord," Ven. Ananda responded to the Blessed One. > > > > The Blessed One said: "Now how, Ananda, in the discipline of a noble > > one is there the unexcelled development of the faculties? There is > > the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a > > monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & > > disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in > > me, this disagreeable thing... this agreeable & disagreeable thing > > has arisen in me. And that is > > compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this > > is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable > > thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable thing > > ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a man with good > > eyes, having closed them, might open them; or having opened them, > > might close them, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no > > matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable > > thing... agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes > > its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the > > unexcelled development of the faculties with > > regard to forms cognizable by the eye. > > > > "Furthermore, when hearing a sound with the ear, there arises in a > > monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. > > He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable > > thing... this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And > > that is > > compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this > > is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable > > thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable thing > > ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a strong man might > > easily snap his fingers, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how > > easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing... > > disagreeable thing... agreeable & > > disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the > > discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development > > of the faculties with regard to sounds cognizable by the ear. > > > > "Furthermore, when smelling an aroma with the nose, there arises in > > a monk > > what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. > > He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable > > thing... this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And > > that is > > compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this > > is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable > > thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable thing > > ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as drops of water roll > > off a gently sloping lotus leaf & do not remain there, that is how > > quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the > > arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & > > disagreeable thing ceases, and > > equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this > > is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to > > aromas cognizable by the nose. > > > > "Furthermore, when tasting a flavor with the tongue, there arises in > > a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & > > disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in > > me, this disagreeable thing... this agreeable & disagreeable thing > > has arisen > > in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But > > this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, > > the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & > > disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as > > a strong man might easily > > spit out a ball of saliva gathered on the tip of his tongue, that is > > how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, > > the arisen > > agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable > > thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of > > a noble one, > > this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with > > regard to > > flavors cognizable by the tongue. > > > > "Furthermore, when touching a tactile sensation with the body, there > > arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is > > agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has > > arisen in me, this disagreeable thing... this agreeable & > > disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, > > dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, > > i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing... > > disagreeable thing... agreeable & > > disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as > > a strong man might easily extend his flexed arm or flex his extended > > arm, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it > > refers to, > > the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & > > disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the > > discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development > > of the faculties with regard to tactile sensations cognizable by the > > body. > > > > "Furthermore, when cognizing an idea with the intellect, there > > arises in a > > monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & > > disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in > > me, this disagreeable thing... this agreeable & disagreeable thing > > has arisen > > in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But > > this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity. With that, > > the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & > > disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as > > a strong man might let two or three drops of water fall onto an iron > > pan heated all day: Slow would the falling of the drops of water, > > but they quickly would vanish & disappear. That is how quickly, how > > rapidly, how easily, no matter what it > > refers to, the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... > > agreeable & > > disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the > > discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development > > of the faculties with regard to ideas cognizable by the intellect. > > > > "And how is one a person in training, someone following the way? > > There is > > the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a > > monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. > > He feels horrified, humiliated, & disgusted with the arisen > > agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable > > thing. > > > > "When hearing a sound with the ear... When smelling an aroma with > > the nose... When tasting a flavor with the tongue... When touching a > > tactile sensation with the body... When cognizing an idea with the > > intellect, there arises in him what is agreeable, what is > > disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He feels horrified, > > humiliated, & disgusted with > > the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & > > disagreeable thing. > > > > "This is how one is a person in training, someone following the way. > > > > "And how is one a noble one with developed faculties? There is the > > case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk > > what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & > > disagreeable. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in > > the presence of what is not loathsome. If he wants, he remains > > percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome. > > If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence > > of what is not loathsome & what is. If he wants, he remains > > percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is > > loathsome & what is not. If he wants -- in the presence of what is > > loathsome & what is not -- cutting himself off from both, he remains > > equanimous, alert, & mindful. > > > > "When hearing a sound with the ear... When smelling an aroma with > > the nose... When tasting a flavor with the tongue... When touching a > > tactile sensation with the body... When cognizing an idea with the > > intellect, there arises in him what is agreeable, what is > > disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. If he wants, he > > remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not > > loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in > > the presence of what is loathsome. If he wants, he remains > > percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome > > & what is. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in > > the presence of what is loathsome & what > > is not. If he wants -- in the presence of what is loathsome & what > > is not > > -- cutting himself off from both, he remains equanimous, alert, & mindful. > > > > > > "This is how one is a noble one with developed faculties. > > > > "So, Ananda, I have taught you the unexcelled development of the faculties > > in the discipline of a noble one; I have taught you how one is a > > person in > > training, someone following the way; I have taught you how one is a noble > > one with developed faculties. Whatever a teacher should do -- > > seeking the > > welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I > > done for > > you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. > > Practice jhana, Ananda. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into > > regret. This is our message to you all." > > > > That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Ananda delighted > > in the > > Blessed One's words. > >
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Category: Diary
5 comments
14 Aug 2003 @ 07:46 by Ed @68.136.84.105 : a 10 month comm lag?
Took you long enough! ;-) (teasing)
Now you have me taking that word "pa.ticcasamuuppanna.m" to pieces and looking the pieces up in a Pali dictionary. I should get a good Sanskrit dictionary too, It is too cumbersome to always look up Sanskrit online.
The pieces are:
pa.ticca
samu
uppanna
I think Stede and Rhys-Davies (the Pali dictionary authors) blew it on this word because the word makes zero sense using their definitions of the pieces. One thing I noticed about Sanskrit is that it is almost astonishingly logical in its word formation from other words (Pali is a "vulgar" or vulgate Sanskrit). Which tells me there is something missing from their definitions. I need to find the Sanskrit original form of those three words (their cognates), and their related words from the roots.
cheers
Ed
14 Aug 2003 @ 08:34 by mx @4.62.123.106 : you can use mine...but it's devanagari
I have a pretty good Sanskrit dictionary but the printing is terrible and together with the devanagari script it's dreadful to decipher.
The prefix is 'sam' not 'samu', here it would mean to 'all the arising', denoting the encompassing meaning of it.
The key though, methinks, is pa.ticca and it shares the endword with another enigmatic word 'anicca' (pa.ti- and an-, resp.). Anicca, as you certainly know, is commonly translated as 'non-eternal' or 'transient', 'sabbe dhammaa aniccaa' (all things are transient/non-eternal') is one of the 3 Holy Truths in Gotamo's teaching.
Georg Grimm went so far as claiming that nobody since Gotamo's time was able to grasp the true meaning of 'pa.tisamuppana'. I would rather think that nobody bothered or dared to speak up, if s/he realized it...
18 Aug 2003 @ 02:59 by Ingrid von der Behrens @217.0.213.241 : comm lag - Sutta ...
Amazing !!!!!!
...recalling a never existing future: ... having gone already Max will still "answer" unanswered emails - oha oha !!! :-) :-)
well - but thanks ;-)
Ingrid
18 Aug 2003 @ 04:26 by ashanti : Comm lag....
....now *there's* a term I haven't heard in.....how long? 8 years....(Comm lag.....) :-)
18 Aug 2003 @ 08:38 by imre @65.141.62.245 : commlag
COMM LAG (COMMUNICATION LAG)
1. the amount of time that passes between hearing a question and giving the answer, whether one is talking or silent during that time.
(1) the length of time intervening between the asking of a question and the reply to that specific question by the person asked. [Kevin's Note: this is one of the indicators of processing. When a process is no longer producing a change in the length of comm lag, it indicates that another process should be engaged upon. One could come back to this process later, and would run it again as long as it continued to produce change in the comm lag.] [Kevin Brady]
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30 Oct 2003 @ 07:14: From the other Rio de Janeiro: Meeting Adao Daxalebarada
3 Jul 2003 @ 23:40: Proverb of the day: Never write more than what you read
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