en https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v424/ An NCN News Log http://www.newciv.org/pic/ncnicon2-s.gif https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v424/ 88 31 webmaster@newciv.org OrgSpace NewsLog 1.87 Thu, 29 Jan 2015 15:11:25 UT Thu, 29 Jan 2015 15:11:25 UT http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss 180 https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000006/#com193705 2015-01-29 15:11: comment by <a href="mailto:cjagt0usx8g@gmail.com">esrin</a> on "ere is a legit reasonable personal free offer to everyone in ":<br/>arb, have a 7 month old erret named ippin. he is a playful entgreeic little sweetie. y husband and are going on vacation for a week in ugust and was wondering if you were able to board her for us while we are away? he is currently an only ferret though we do have a 9 yr old daughter and several cats that she likes to terrorize lol. e would like to use the boarding as an opportunity to see how she behaves with other ferrets and perhaps adopt a friend for her when we get back.lease let me know if you can help with this, your fees, and anything else would need or need to know. hank you so much.hannon https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000006/#com193705 Thu, 29 Jan 2015 15:11:25 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000006/#com193563 2015-01-29 07:35: comment by <a href="mailto:dvp4aoquv0n@yahoo.com">sflkj</a> on "ere is a legit reasonable personal free offer to everyone in ":<br/>hello there =) just adopted my first and only freret so far last month. he had passed away yesterday from juvenile lymphoma. nfortunately, we only had her for not even 2 weeks. fell in love. knew frerets were so energetic and fun. loved coming home and seeing her perk up when 'd call her name and wait for me to let her out. he was a champagne point female about 5 months old. o you have any similar? 'm interested and cannot stand not having mommy's baby around but don't wanna rush into anything and get the wrong freret. t took us quit a while to find my angel, assy. https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000006/#com193563 Thu, 29 Jan 2015 07:35:36 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000001/#com156058 2011-10-27 10:39: comment by <a href="http://algosphere.org">obert aoust</a> on " urvivable ath for the lanet arth":<br/>onjour oan. am here today, having found this page via oogle, because am still brought back to the eodemocracy idea since it is to me the only idea that might work for the kind of collective participation that is required by an 'ccupy lanet arth' movement. say "might work" because, alas, eodemocracy has not been tried yet, and worse still, cannot understand it myself (my non-expert intuition is that it would work)! hope... couldn't we bring all this to clarity and do a test with a few hundred persons? https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000001/#com156058 Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:39:12 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000001/#com155931 2011-10-25 06:37: comment by <a href="mailto:worldmind@yahoo.com">oan arratu</a> on " urvivable ath for the lanet arth":<br/>ell, it was a long time ago since posted here. 've been working constantly in the eitgeist ovement, which is doing what hoped would happen, although it is not originated by me. (which is good for my ego. lol)<br/><br/>he geodemocracy idea is still valid, but it is a long way from implementation, partly because can no longer explain it clearly. t is a complex system, and can barely tie my shoes. lol. ut it will be explained again, by someone who will stand on my shoulders as stood on uckminster uller's shoulders. t is still viable but it is not what the world is looking for yet. verything in it's own time. ith a task like saving the ecosystem and humanity, it is not a fast process... it is all about education, and a change in paradigm. t is happening, but don't expect fast changes... although would love to see them while 'm still alive to see them. grin. ice that you folks are still here. eace, my friends. https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000001/#com155931 Tue, 25 Oct 2011 06:37:46 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000006/#com102704 2009-06-27 15:41: comment by scotty on "ere is a legit reasonable personal free offer to everyone in ":<br/> { http://petitemimine.p.e.pic.centerblog.net/ntbcu65e.gif }<br/><br/><br/>'m with you all the way <br/> hope all your hard work pays off <br/>for you personally as well as for everyone ! https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000006/#com102704 Sat, 27 Jun 2009 15:41:20 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000001/#com99161 2009-01-25 11:04: comment by <a href="mailto:worldmind@yahoo.com">oan arratu</a> on " urvivable ath for the lanet arth":<br/>'m still here and now 'm back online for the foreseeable future. now have an income of sorts and can lived like normal people. y perspective hasn't changed much, 'm still quite sure a geodemocracy will come into existence, although it may not be much like had in mind. he effort now, it seems, is to wake up enough people to who they really are so as to change the 'common knowledge' in our growing world cultures.<br/><br/>act is, if someone knows who they really are, they do not have the cynical, or ecstatic, viewpoints/experiences that so affected their opinions and actions as before. e are niverse being aware of itself. t's not a debatable observation, because it is an observation anyone can have. nd the knowledge that brings the observation is gaining ground every day all over the world.<br/><br/>nd if anything can bring about the urvivable ath listed at the beginning of this 'blog', it's masses of people knowing who they really are.<br/><br/>t abolishes fear, hatred, petty judgment, obsession, and self-centered self-absorption, among just a few of the worse egoistic practices fostered by the cultures of the past.<br/><br/>nd it is arising spontaneously on a global scale. think we're going to make it. "octor, the patient is awake!" ysoku! https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000001/#com99161 Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:04:35 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000001/#com71168 2006-06-20 20:29: comment by <a href="mailto:shc2012@earthlink.net">ve oward</a> on " urvivable ath for the lanet arth":<br/>s this the same oan who had the orerunners group? ith the site explaining a geodesic society? he last connection had with you - you had had some <br/>health problems so was concerned. f you have the time please let me <br/>know if am on the right track. <br/><br/>ve oward https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000001/#com71168 Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:29:05 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000006/#com57763 2005-08-14 12:27: comment by <a href="https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v50">fleer</a> on "ere is a legit reasonable personal free offer to everyone in ":<br/>ool, can get a copy of the journal of john in pdf format ?<br/><br/>reat idea. <br/> hope you will be able to sell a great number of books. erhaps you can find something like http://www.globalideasbank.org/site/store/ (lobal deas bank store) to publish them. ust an idea. :) https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000006/#com57763 Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:27:59 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56866 2005-07-09 21:23: comment by <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sd-2/">idyagama</a> on "mazingly, a eodemocracy is incorruptable.":<br/>>"-: oan, these people are like the people on your he arm, and they are not like those that you associate with. f you want to see the caliber of oe ixpack, go to your nearest epartment of otor ehicles and size up the people that are waiting. don't want these people to run things." <br/><br/>>: nd by what criteria do you judge who should run things? <br/><br/>-: rin and age of oogle don't decide what a "good" web page is other than by the link endorsements of other "good" web pages.<br/><br/>o the criteria of who should run things would be: *the endorsement of others*, quantified in this manner: rank = (# of votes) (avg. strength of in-votes). his is when: strength of vote = rank / # of out-votes<br/><br/>his is the idea behind the ageank algorithm. thought that you already knew this.<br/><br/>>: ctually, ark, when find myself in a semi-random group of people, like at the , use the opportunity to poll them for their opinions. have always been very suprised how little appearance reflects the level of discourse and opinions people come up with. t has a lot to do with the level of self-awareness in each person and if they realize or not how much of what they think is conditioned into them. t's not that the average person is dumb, but that they may be 98% conditioned into their opinions without any self-analysis.<br/><br/>-: hether someone is ignorant, stupid or both, the outcome is still the same: .(ranted, ignorance is better than stupidity because it is more curable.)<br/><br/>>: ut that also fits the bell curve and those who are most aware tend to be on one fringe of the bell curve. lso, one of the most basic principles of troubleshooting in survival situations is to consider all opinions and proposals, regardless of who they come from. oe ixpack might well be the person who happens to come up with the solution that others miss, so if you devalue that person's opinion, then that solution might be missed and the solution picked and implimented by the people who others consider 'higher caliber' may lead everyone to their deaths. <br/><br/>-: f someone was trully higher-caliber, wouldn't they be listening to their underlings? think so.<br/><br/>>: ver been to a ensa meeting? ould you consider them to be 'high caliber'?<br/><br/>-: o, have never been to a ensa meeting, but am on several high- groups. rarely find them to be high-caliber because most are painfully .<br/><br/>>: rankly, while they were slightly more interesting than the average person, their thinking was in many ways more rigid and boxed in. ou certainly cannot point to intelligence as a determiner of 'caliber'.<br/><br/>-: would say that intelligence is a factor in caliber, but spiritual advancement is more important. <br/><br/>>: ver meet a really good street con?<br/><br/>-: f have, didn't recognize them as being good.<br/><br/>>: hey are excellent at getting people seperated from their money, and usually leave the mark feeling like the con is their friend. ut the smartest cons go into legit businesses, cause there's a lot more money in legit economics and less threat of jail. hat about those who are 'experts' in the fields of 'politics'? hen went to ashington and talked to various levels of people working there, from ongressmen to their third level down minions, found a level of manipulation and outright lying that convenced me that the power in politics attracts the corruptable more than anything.<br/><br/>-: said experts, not "experts". real expert will have honor and integrity - this is what am looking for.<br/><br/>>: ive me oe ixpack over them anytime. emember the 'popular' kids in high school? ere they the 'high caliber' people you speak of?<br/><br/>-: ! :-(<br/><br/>>: r are you speaking of the rich people, the millionairs?<br/><br/>-: , ! :-(<br/><br/>>: found the 'popular kids' to be vain, foolish, and in their status only because they have a talent others didn't have, a kind of superficial 'socialability' factor, and have hung out with many millionairs and they also have their wealth due not to intelligence or ability, but because they have a talent at economics, which was more of being in the right place at the right time and sucking up to the right people than anything else. oney is certainly not a measure of 'high caliber'. wouldn't buy a used car from any of them. <br/><br/>-: would agree with these assesments.<br/><br/>>: ny criteria you pick, you find that all people are oe ixpack wearing different clothing, or speaking different jargon or part of different social groups or with different talents. <br/><br/>-: o, saints are not oe ixpacks.<br/><br/>>: he fact is, only over as wide and diverse a group as possible can the bell curve of distrubution work to our benefit. nly when as many people as necessary work on a problem can a solution be found that would otherwise slip through the cracks of all the various classifications one might put on each individual. he synergy of an group, even if most are 'oe ixpack', can far exceed any 'superior' individual's best.<br/><br/>-: only see synergy through hierarchy - this is where 2 beats eodemocracy. ure, people can and do horizontally synergize, but the selection and coordination of this synergy requires hierarchy.<br/><br/>>: (oesn't always though, of course. ut the eodemocracy is designed to put a decided weight towards positive results.)<br/><br/>-: oan, 2 does not run contrary to diverse opinions. n fact, 2 encourages diversity by being democratic - those that respect diversity are selected, and my suggested advisor boards are algorithmicly built to have people from different groups.<br/><br/>-ark, eattle http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sd-2/ https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56866 Sat, 9 Jul 2005 21:23:49 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56861 2005-07-09 19:21: comment by <a href="https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v424">rcarratu</a> on "mazingly, a eodemocracy is incorruptable.":<br/>> -: oan, these people are like the people on your he arm, and they are not like those that you associate with. f you want to see the caliber of oe ixpack, go to your nearest epartment of otor ehicles and size up the people that are waiting. don't want these people to run things.< <br/><br/>nd by what criteria do you judge who should run things?<br/><br/>ctually, ark, when find myself in a semi-random group of people, like at the , use the opportunity to poll them for their opinions. have always been very suprised how little appearance reflects the level of discourse and opinions people come up with. t has a lot to do with the level of self-awareness in each person and if they realize or not how much of what they think is conditioned into them. t's not that the average person is dumb, but that they may be 98% conditioned into their opinions without any self-analysis. ut that also fits the bell curve and those who are most aware tend to be on one fringe of the bell curve. <br/><br/>lso, one of the most basic principles of troubleshooting in survival situations is to consider all opinions and proposals, regardless of who they come from. oe ixpack might well be the person who happens to come up with the solution that others miss, so if you devalue that person's opinion, then that solution might be missed and the solution picked and implimented by the people who others consider 'higher caliber' may lead everyone to their deaths.<br/><br/>ver been to a ensa meeting? ould you consider them to be 'high caliber'? rankly, while they were slightly more interesting than the average person, their thinking was in many ways more rigid and boxed in. ou certainly cannot point to intelligence as a determiner of 'caliber'.<br/><br/>ver meet a really good street con? hey are excellent at getting people seperated from their money, and usually leave the mark feeling like the con is their friend. ut the smartest cons go into legit businesses, cause there's a lot more money in legit economics and less threat of jail.<br/><br/>hat about those who are 'experts' in the fields of 'politics'? hen went to ashington and talked to various levels of people working there, from ongressmen to their third level down minions, found a level of manipulation and outright lying that convenced me that the power in politics attracts the corruptable more than anything. ive me oe ixpack over them anytime.<br/><br/>emember the 'popular' kids in high school? ere they the 'high caliber' people you speak of? r are you speaking of the rich people, the millionairs? found the 'popular kids' to be vain, foolish, and in their status only because they have a talent others didn't have, a kind of superficial 'socialability' factor, and have hung out with many millionairs and they also have their wealth due not to intelligence or ability, but because they have a talent at economics, which was more of being in the right place at the right time and sucking up to the right people than anything else. oney is certainly not a measure of 'high caliber'. wouldn't buy a used car from any of them.<br/><br/>ny criteria you pick, you find that all people are oe ixpack wearing different clothing, or speaking different jargon or part of different social groups or with different talents. <br/><br/>he fact is, only over as wide and diverse a group as possible can the bell curve of distrubution work to our benefit. nly when as many people as necessary work on a problem can a solution be found that would otherwise slip through the cracks of all the various classifications one might put on each individual. he synergy of an group, even if most are 'oe ixpack', can far exceed any 'superior' individual's best. (oesn't always though, of course. ut the eodemocracy is designed to put a decided weight towards positive results.) https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56861 Sat, 9 Jul 2005 19:21:12 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56710 2005-07-05 05:04: comment by <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sd-2/">idyagama</a> on "mazingly, a eodemocracy is incorruptable.":<br/>>>:[...]he nternet was originally based upon this principle, so if any or most of the system is bombed out of existence in a nuke war, the remaining nodes would still remain in contact. <br/><br/>>: [...]he only requirement for each member is that they put in the time to participate, at least an hour a day five days a week. ince government is a very serious matter and is far more important than just choosing 'leaders', the future will require more input from citizens than 15 minutes every four years.<br/><br/>-: oan, these people are like the people on your he arm, and they are not like those that you associate with. f you want to see the caliber of oe ixpack, go to your nearest epartment of otor ehicles and size up the people that are waiting. don't want these people to run things.<br/><br/>>: ven your system will require frequent plebiscites, (not the right word but close enough) than the existing once every two or four year elections.<br/><br/>-: ith my system, people vote whenever they want, and rank recalculations can occur a frequently as once a week.<br/><br/>>-: ost of the world isn't ready for an *exclusively-interior reward system* yet. am for giving people interior and exterior rewards. e both are idealistic, but think that am more realistic than you. <br/><br/>eople don't usually particularly like getting gas for their car or going to the grocery store to buy food, but they do it because it's necessary and part of living. ou can say that the travel or the food is their reward, but most people just see it as necessary. f people realize the world is as much theirs as anyone else's and that putting in the time to govern it is as necessary as filling their gas tank, think people will do it.<br/><br/>-: o, oan. oe ixpack is an idiot. e needs to appoint those that are more qualified than himself.<br/><br/>>: ertainly the past record of civilization points hard at the results of placing the decisions on the shoulders of only a few people. n a small level, like towns, a few people can contain all the variables necessary to make good decisions for the whole town, but on larger levels, it is obvious it becomes too complex to see all the ramifications of any given situation.<br/><br/>-: 2 is modular and can decentralize projects down to more community scales.<br/><br/>>: eodemocracy will produce a much larger collective mind for figuring things out than any small group of people, no matter how smart or educated they are. he eodemocracy concept takes the 'leaders' vs 'sheeple' phenomena out of the equation of government. -2 does also, to a degree. <br/><br/>-: es, and hope that these are the systems that we are comparing.<br/><br/>>-: oan, a hierarchy is still needed to coordinate collective action, unless you know something about logic and systems theory that don't. <br/><br/>>: mmm, maybe logic and systems theory hasn't caught up with living yet? grin! he eodemocracy does not do action directly... it sets up rojects for that.<br/><br/>-: he act of setting up a project is hierarchal.<br/><br/>>: nd rojects do have hierarchy. ut the hierarchy has only the authority the members in the eodemocracy who support it allows. nd yes, that condition does limit the 'leaders' in the hierarchy, and will produce tension from time to time. [...]he main difference is the dynamic motivation for being on a roject. ost rojects will be doing something that solves a particular problem and disband after that.<br/><br/>-: 2 has provisions for isappearing ask orces.<br/><br/>>:hat will be the motivation of anyone who gets into a roject. t's like the police. he best police are those who really joined up to serve the people, to protect them, while those who are doing it for other reasons, or just to make a paycheck seem to not do so well. hey are more corruptible. rojects, being limited in time and authority, will not be 'careers', so many of the dynamics will be different than in present organizations. <br/><br/>-: linton's professor uigley talked about the *ossification* of institutions over time. 2 was designed to counter this.<br/><br/>-hanti<br/>-ark https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56710 Tue, 5 Jul 2005 05:04:10 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000005/#com56696 2005-07-04 18:37: comment by jstarrs on "olution: true 'common sense'":<br/>....nothing exists without relying on something else for it's existence. https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000005/#com56696 Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:37:42 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56693 2005-07-04 17:06: comment by <a href="https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v424">rcarratu</a> on "mazingly, a eodemocracy is incorruptable.":<br/>>>:[...]he nternet was originally based upon this principle, so if any or most of the system is bombed out of existence in a nuke war, the remaining nodes would still remain in contact. <br/><br/>> -: es, its a network to implement the commands of a . ou still haven't explained how someone would receive instructions in your system. <br/><br/>es, the nternet was created to implement the commands of a ierarchy, but it doesn't require a hierarchy other than an organizational board to allocate classifications, and that was not purely required either. he nternet would work fine without such allocations, if not so conveniently.<br/><br/>here is no need for anyone to give instructions in a geodemocracy. he format of the ubject process is the only 'instructions' required. ll it does is organize the choices of the members into a voting order which makes the realtime decision meetings take only an hour rather than many hours. ebate, self-education, fact finding, all that is done during the ngoing meeting, which is much like an elist. he only requirement for each member is that they put in the time to participate, at least an hour a day five days a week. ince government is a very serious matter and is far more important than just choosing 'leaders', the future will require more input from citizens than 15 minutes every four years. ven your system will require frequent plebiscites, (not the right word but close enough) than the existing once every two or four year elections.<br/><br/>>-: ost of the world isn't ready for an *exclusively-interior reward system* yet. am for giving people interior and exterior rewards. e both are idealistic, but think that am more realistic than you. <br/><br/>eople don't usually particularly like getting gas for their car or going to the grocery store to buy food, but they do it because it's necessary and part of living. ou can say that the travel or the food is their reward, but most people just see it as necessary. f people realize the world is as much theirs as anyone else's and that putting in the time to govern it is as necessary as filling their gas tank, think people will do it. ertainly the past record of civilization points hard at the results of placing the decisions on the shoulders of only a few people. n a small level, like towns, a few people can contain all the variables necessary to make good decisions for the whole town, but on larger levels, it is obvious it becomes too complex to see all the ramifications of any given situation. eodemocracy will produce a much larger collective mind for figuring things out than any small group of people, no matter how smart or educated they are. he eodemocracy concept takes the 'leaders' vs 'sheeple' phenomena out of the equation of government. -2 does also, to a degree.<br/><br/>>-: oan, a hierarchy is still needed to coordinate collective action, unless you know something about logic and systems theory that don't. <br/><br/>mmm, maybe logic and systems theory hasn't caught up with living yet? grin! he eodemocracy does not do action directly... it sets up rojects for that. nd rojects do have hierarchy. ut the hierarchy has only the authority the members in the eodemocracy who support it allows. nd yes, that condition does limit the 'leaders' in the hierarchy, and will produce tension from time to time. ut nobody has to do anything they don't want to do, so any project 'leader' who finds they do not want to work it out with the supporting members can resign. hat's true for most organizations now.<br/><br/>he main difference is the dynamic motivation for being on a roject. ost rojects will be doing something that solves a particular problem and disband after that. hat will be the motivation of anyone who gets into a roject. t's like the police. he best police are those who really joined up to serve the people, to protect them, while those who are doing it for other reasons, or just to make a paycheck seem to not do so well. hey are more corruptible.<br/><br/>rojects, being limited in time and authority, will not be 'careers', so many of the dynamics will be different than in present organizations. here are drawbacks in not having 'career' people doing jobs, but doubt a eodemocracy will be the only system in existence, so if biologists are needed, they would most likely be in a roject which needs biology expertise. ut the roject itself will not continue past the application of the solution or the time limit set by the eodemocracy, whatever members choose that to be. https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56693 Mon, 4 Jul 2005 17:06:44 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56655 2005-07-02 21:45: comment by <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sd-2/">idyagama</a> on "mazingly, a eodemocracy is incorruptable.":<br/>>:[...]he nternet was originally based upon this principle, so if any or most of the system is bombed out of existence in a nuke war, the remaining nodes would still remain in contact. <br/><br/>-: es, its a network to implement the commands of a . ou still haven't explained how someone would receive instructions in your system. <br/><br/>>: s for 'where's the merit and reward for excelling'? ell, there are two kinds of reward, interior and exterior. ersonally, go for interior, that is, when do something well, am happy to have done it. xterior award is primarily watching the world (hopefully) get better and better as the decisions am part of become action and result. his is the only reward in a geodemocratic system because all others opens the system up to corruption.<br/><br/>-: ost of the world isn't ready for an *exclusively-interior reward system* yet. am for giving people interior and exterior rewards. e both are idealistic, but think that am more realistic than you. <br/><br/>>: here is no guarantees in life besides death, none at all, and there is no way to know beforehand if something will succeed. ne hopes, of course, and using modeling and other algorithms, one can take that hope to a very precise level, but things fail that have been modeled and figured out to the nth degrees. <br/><br/>-: 2 is not based on modeling, however there is a potentially strong descriptive component to it which can be used to better understand and build a community.<br/><br/>>: hat's life. he eodemocracy system cannot guarantee any results, any more than any other system. he incorruptibility of it is a characteristic of the geometry of the system, so that is not a matter of success or failure.<br/><br/>-: oan, a hierarchy is still needed to coordinate collective action, unless you know something about logic and systems theory that don't.<br/><br/> https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56655 Sat, 2 Jul 2005 21:45:51 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56623 2005-07-01 09:56: comment by <a href="https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v424">rcarratu</a> on "mazingly, a eodemocracy is incorruptable.":<br/>he conventional idea of a foundation is as in modern house building where a rigid structure is under the house itself, so there is as little movement as possible. f a modern house was picked up whole by a helicopter, for instance, it would crumble without massive restructuring.<br/><br/> geodesic dome, however, needs no foundation. t's 'foundation' is it's structural integrity. geodesic dome could be, and has been, picked up by helicopters and moved without any structural damage whatsoever.<br/><br/> geodemocracy has that same structural integrity, because doesn't have the 'stress' points inherent in all hierarchies. very 'delegated' person is a stress point in the structure, and stress points can fail, which in social terms is called 'corruption' or 'inadequacy'. very nailed together join in a normal house is a stress point, and it will simply fail if stress is applied at an angle it is not designed to handle, designed by the very geometry of the house itself. geodesic, because stress is spread out almost equally on all the joints in the system, does not fail. good example of this is the domes put over radars in the far north, the efense arly arning system, ( line) which withstood every stress possible in that extreme environment without failure. ven when a truck backed into the cube structure the dome sat on, collapsing the cube, the dome was without damage. (he only failure in nearly 50 years of use. n materials, time in construction, and manpower, the domes exceeded in savings all ngineer estimates by a huge factor.<br/><br/>ince every person in a geodemocracy is responsible for him or her self, has exactly the same access, and the same ability to make choices and allocate resources, there is no place anyone can get access to other's cooperation beyond the basic dynamic of the system. here's no sources of delegated power available for any silver tongued popular yahoo to get into and use in a corruptible way. t works like electrical wiring, where single wires which cannot carry the required current will melt, while a net of wires parallel linked will naturally divide the current so all wires remain working. he first kind of connection is as strong as it's weakest link... a geodesic net is only as weak as the strength of the whole system itself. ven if you take a sledge and pound at a vertex until it breaks, the structure will stand without much damage or weakness. he structure of a geodesic becomes stronger the larger and higher frequency it becomes.<br/><br/>he nternet was originally based upon this principle, so if any or most of the system is bombed out of existence in a nuke war, the remaining nodes would still remain in contact.<br/><br/>s for 'where's the merit and reward for excelling'? ell, there are two kinds of reward, interior and exterior. ersonally, go for interior, that is, when do something well, am happy to have done it. xterior award is primarily watching the world (hopefully) get better and better as the decisions am part of become action and result. his is the only reward in a geodemocratic system because all others opens the system up to corruption.<br/><br/>here is no guarantees in life besides death, none at all, and there is no way to know beforehand if something will succeed. ne hopes, of course, and using modeling and other algorithms, one can take that hope to a very precise level, but things fail that have been modeled and figured out to the nth degrees. hat's life. he eodemocracy system cannot guarantee any results, any more than any other system. he incorruptibility of it is a characteristic of the geometry of the system, so that is not a matter of success or failure. https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56623 Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:56:11 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56531 2005-06-27 13:20: comment by <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sd-2/">idyagama</a> on "mazingly, a eodemocracy is incorruptable.":<br/>" think your approach to republican election ranking is excellent."<br/><br/>-: hanks for your support!<br/><br/>"t would help out a lot! ...if the ruling elite allowed it's use. ut the contraction is... hy should the elite who rule the republican system under the easily manipulative existing methods of vote counting change their system when the new system might well oust them from their exalted positions?"<br/><br/>-: hat choice do they have? f 2 works at a small scale, it will eventually be adopted for larger scale purposes. he current elite aren't the only ones with power. <br/><br/>"he system you propose is excellent and heartally recommend it's implimentation at the people's eariliest convenience."<br/><br/>-: hanks for being a sport! <br/><br/>"ou seek to make a balsa wood foundation into a hard wood foundation. seek to create structures that need no foundation. ut you would not likely see it that way." <br/><br/>-: oan, that sounds bizarre to me.<br/><br/>"egardless of your excellent 2 system, if your paradigm sees no worth in people other than the few elite, then who in their right mind would accept your paradigm as their own except those who thought they were the best canidates for elitedom?"<br/><br/>-: 2 is designed to be a moderating influence over people, so those that would support it would be those that are opposed to extremism, which is most people. 2 is elitist like representitive systems, and those selected would be the chosen statecraft experts - think that most would consider the chosen directors to be superior statespeople to themselves. <br/><br/>"ho defines the criteria for eliteness in a system in which the elite wish to keep their eliteness by any means necessary?"<br/><br/>-: 2 still is representitive democracy, so its the voters who make this determination.<br/><br/>"here are more questions, but these will suffice for now.[...] our 2 concept may well be implemented in your lifetime. hope it is, and done so without bloodshed. nly a good means creates a good end." <br/><br/>-: greed.<br/><br/>-hanti<br/>-ark, eattle<br/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sd-2/ https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56531 Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:20:52 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56518 2005-06-26 10:16: comment by <a href="mailto:worldmind@yahoo.com">oan</a> on "mazingly, a eodemocracy is incorruptable.":<br/> think your approach to republican election ranking is excellent. t would help out a lot! ...if the ruling elite allowed it's use.<br/><br/>ut the contraction is... hy should the elite who rule the republican system under the easily manipulative existing methods of vote counting change their system when the new system might well oust them from their exalted positions?<br/><br/>he system you propose is excellent and heartally recomend it's implimentation at the people's eariliest convenience. <br/><br/>ou seek to make a balsa wood foundation into a hard wood foundation. seek to create structures that need no foundation. ut you would not likely see it that way. <br/><br/>egardless of your excellent -2 system, if your paradigm sees no worth in people other than the few elite, then who in their right mind would accept your paradigm as their own except those who thought they were the best canidates for elitedom? ho defines the criteria for eliteness in a system in which the elite wish to keep their eliteness by any means necessary? here are more questions, but these will suffice for now.<br/><br/> have no delusions that the geodemocracy will even start in my lifetime. t is a system for a evel ne civilization, and we are still in the middle of a evel ero civilization. owever, what is contained in the basic knowledge every child learns before age five grows daily, the great achievements of the past absorbed and taken for granted by the new generations, and with that change in basic data, the common aspects of people's worldviews shifts towards ephiphanies like electrons shift from lower shells to higher shells. our -2 concept may well be implemented in your lifetime. hope it is, and done so without bloodshed. nly a good means creates a good end. https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56518 Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:16:59 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56510 2005-06-25 20:47: comment by <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sd-2/">idyagama</a> on "mazingly, a eodemocracy is incorruptable.":<br/>eople,<br/><br/> posted a list of common contradictions on orlditizen-ahoo:<br/><br/>> hey try making elite positions against elitism.<br/>><br/>> hey try making meritorious arguements against merit.<br/>><br/>> hey try being authoritative against authority.<br/>><br/>> hey try putting non-hierarchy in a hierarchy above hierarchy.<br/>><br/>> hey try making superior arguements against superiority.<br/>><br/>> hey try to make the lack of universal truth itself a universal<br/>> truth.<br/><br/>nother to add is:<br/><br/>-hey try making a competitive arguements again competition.<br/><br/>oan seems to be giving us another one:<br/><br/>-hey try taking leadership positions against leadership.<br/><br/>ou all are welcome to join a group that is contradiction free:<br/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sd-2/<br/><br/>hanti<br/>ark osst, eattle https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56510 Sat, 25 Jun 2005 20:47:04 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000005/#com56488 2005-06-25 04:31: comment by astrid on "olution: true 'common sense'":<br/>...very -common -or at least very un-usual and very ivine! <br/>ery well said, oan!!! https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000005/#com56488 Sat, 25 Jun 2005 04:31:17 UT https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56478 2005-06-24 21:35: comment by <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sd-2/">idyagama</a> on "mazingly, a eodemocracy is incorruptable.":<br/>oan,<br/><br/>irst, thanks for joining -2:<br/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sd-2/<br/><br/>y comments are interspirsed:<br/><br/>"lease tell me when and where a direct democracy was ever tried. can't find any reference to that."<br/><br/>-: t least one of the "republics" during the rench evolution was a direct-democracy. http://www.ic.org has a "ommunities irectory" of over 500 registered ntentional ommunities, many of which are direct democracies. his is the favored form of governance.<br/><br/>o you remember arol illie from he arm (a blonde who must of been a hottie at the time)? wo of her sons went to a school governed as a direct-democracy(for internal operations - a school!)<br/> <br/>"he eonet is not anything like what think you are imagining. t is not 'populistic' in the sense you are using. t's a structure of individuals who work together in a system, but it has no hierarchy with the weakness of such hierarchies."<br/><br/>-: ierarchies are not weak, they are strong, thats why they are used.<br/><br/>"t creates a mechinism for small group decision making without the dynamics of small group manipulation so often found in existing organizations. t's coordination is revolving and set, not elected. ead it so you can find real problems with it. ( don't claim there are none.)"<br/><br/>-: have since read it.<br/>here is the reward for and ?<br/>hat structures keep people accountable to reason?<br/>nd why should anyone participate?<br/>ow are activities coordinated?<br/><br/>-hanti<br/>-ark osst, eattle https://newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/__show_article/_a000424-000004/#com56478 Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:35:34 UT